The end of race radios?

Kléber

L'Equipe today has started a series of articles about the use of earpieces and race radios, with a view to having them banned in July.

I'm not sure if this will be possible, riders will say they want safety and it also makes their life much easier, they can mention they are coming back for water or need a wheel change quickly or require team mates to pace them back to the bunch. For every example of races being shut down by hard team tactics, you'll probably find several useful examples of the radio.

Besides I don't think the radios have shut down the race that much, the way sprinters teams would impose a "lock down" on the early stages of the Tour came before radios, it was the early days of Saeco and Mapei that managed this.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what comes up in July.

skavanagh.bikeradar

Unpredictability usually makes the most interesting racing - a bit of rain, fog, confusion over gaps, radios going down etc......so I think I'd be in favour of seeing how it goes without to see if it really does make racing more interesting, handing the initiative back to the riders. Of course I might have dewey eyed romantic ideas about racing pre radios and if I was a pro I'd probably have a different view.

Yellow Peril

Isn't it a case that technology has moved on so much that trying to ban radios is pointless?

I'm not saying that teams would do it very covertly ( which I'm sure they could if they wanted) but with the advent of mobile phones etc wouldn't it be easy enough to relay breaks etc to riders/team cars just by the guy on the roadside these days?

I think it would be good to see riders/teams having to make should we or shouldn't we decisions but it may be too late for that in the modern world.

blazing_saddles

A practice removed that many of would applaud. However, the pifalls a numerous.
First, you'll have have the DS's in a mutinous mood. Look at JB's outburst at the T of Cali and he was getting better info than most.
They'll have to ban mobile phones, too; not unknown in the peloton already. Could get extremely dangerous out there!
"I'm sorry Mr Commissaire. My mum's just phoned with a recipe I've been dying to get my hands on.........sorry, what? drugs, no, of course not..........er carrot cake.........anyhow, must go, something tells me It's time to start chasing down the break..."

...They could take monitors out of the cars, but what about race trackers on the net....

skavanagh.bikeradar

It's the cycling equivalent of tennis worrying about how hard the ball is hit and going back to wooden, smaller raquet heads or golf musing about ditching carbon fibre clubs. In the end it might possibly be that some people - like me - get to an age where everything used to be better! Policemen look so young these days..........

Tom Butcher

I'd be in favour of banning radios - I think it will make for more exciting racing. I don't see why having to ban mobile phones too should be an issue - I'm surprised they are allowed as it is - I'm pretty sure if I started making a call mid way through a 3/4 race at Darley I wouldn't be popular!

If safety is the issue then just allow earpieces to an official commissaires radio - I doubt many riders would bother. And of course radios are implicated in at least one fatality in the peloton - Kivilev - maybe riders would be better off not having to listen to their DS while they are riding in at 30mph in a bunch.

aarw

mobile phones are already against the rules.

I'd be interested to see how it goes without radios, i think it could be better for the racing, and it would get up JB's nose!

feersumendjinn

I thought last year they mooted this, or maybe limiting the radio to one rider per team, mostly its rejected on safety grounds. Still it would be interesting to see if riders still have the sense to read a race & think for themselves.

eh

Ban them IMO.

Although, banning radios would have little effect on the flat sprinters stages because of the easy of getting time checks from motorbikes cars etc. However, the stages it would make a huge difference on is rolling and hilly stages where transfering a lot of quickly changing info to small groups becomes hard.

TTs should have radios banned fullstop it gives the later riders too much of an advantage by knowing the splits of others. And the safety debate in a TT is zero, half the skill should be about reading the road not just blindly mashing away.

I've always wondered how many tours LA may not have won without radios? He regularly asked the team car for advice based on them watch the TV coverage and I believe even spoke to his good friend Dr Ferrari mid-stage.

Moomaloid

BAN THEM!! BAN THEM ALL!!

And if they are that bothered about safety how can they let DS's have monitors in their cars!! I bet they don't cut out as soon as they go faster than 03kph

stagehopper

Of course if you were sponsored by a GPS manufacturer you could just include software which allowed the team car to send you updates via your GPS device. There'll always be a away around it.

mididoctors2

eh wrote:

Ban them IMO.

Although, banning radios would have little effect on the flat sprinters stages because of the easy of getting time checks from motorbikes cars etc. However, the stages it would make a huge difference on is rolling and hilly stages where transfering a lot of quickly changing info to small groups becomes hard.

TTs should have radios banned fullstop it gives the later riders too much of an advantage by knowing the splits of others. And the safety debate in a TT is zero, half the skill should be about reading the road not just blindly mashing away.

+1

broken profile stages would be hilarious.. total chaos. especially given the tactical naivity of racers used to the radio system...

perhaps ear piece radios but race radio only no two way communication or DS talk..

if the DS wants to get a message he needs to employ the old domestique role a bit more..

I'm in favour of curtailling radio use.

mididoctors2

Blazing Saddles wrote:

...They could take monitors out of the cars, but what about race trackers on the net....

I think the technology is not so much the issue... even if the racers had garmin like screens with race tracker splits on them the decisions to chase or not would be more in their court if there was no chit chat with the DS.

for me the issue is the close tactical control the DS can have

blazing_saddles

I don't think Vince Nibali would fancy not have a radio, judging from his performance on stage 8.....

They'll just send a few heads up the road, as "fans". They'll have a "cell" each. Hard to ban them from cars.

If they dope to cheat, they'll certainly not hesitate to use any media in any way they can.

mididoctors2

Blazing Saddles wrote:

I don't think Vince Nibali would fancy not have a radio, judging from his performance on stage 8.....

They'll just send a few heads up the road, as "fans". They'll have a "cell" each. Hard to ban them from cars.

If they dope to cheat, they'll certainly not hesitate to use any media in any way they can.

i think that would be ok... the problem for the DS would be the lack of tactical flexability

even if they have a soigneur ahead on the road with mobile telling their rider to chase/or not they could get in hot water if the race situation changes.. because they could be leaving their rider with the wrong tactical instructions...

which could be fun

term1te

How about supplying the radios to the TV commentators, like they do on F1. Then everyone could hear what is being said. It would have no impact on any "safety" aspects of the radios, but the teams would have to be a little more careful on tactical talk. We could also spend hours dissecting every word looking for the secret codes, or arguing over the exact translation of each message. Hours of extra fun.

teagar

Term1te wrote:

How about supplying the radios to the TV commentators, like they do on F1. Then everyone could hear what is being said. It would have no impact on any "safety" aspects of the radios, but the teams would have to be a little more careful on tactical talk. We could also spend hours dissecting every word looking for the secret codes, or arguing over the exact translation of each message. Hours of extra fun.

You never hear Ferrari or Mclaren unless it's "woo! we won! Congrats to the team" etc...

I'm not so fussed about riders knowing how far the break is etc - they get that from the chalkboard guy anyway and it's difficult not to have at least someone on the internet - even if it's just a DS shouting the times at the peleton.

Would be nice not to have guy in an armchair/carchair deciding the race tactics.

Di Luca manages ok without radio...

terongi

I am having trouble working out what people think will be achieved by banning radios.

Looking at this thread, it seems to be that people want their pro-racing to be either unpredicatble or "hilarious".

As far as I can work out, there have always been systems for riders and DSs to communicate among themselves and to each other, ever since team tactics started to matter in pro-cycling. the system of earpiece radios is just more sophisticated (and less dangerous) than sending a domestique back to the team car for information, instructions etc.

Sounds to me like radios can make it safer (warning of hazards, crashes, weather etc)

What exactly is the problem with all this?

Do we really want our races to be decided by miscalculations based on lack of information? It might be "fun" to watch, but is that what the sport is really about?

Those sorts of miscalculations happen even with radios. That's how Oscar Pereiro won the TdF 06 (if you take Landis out of the equation altogether). Do we want more of those kind of results? I mean Oscar's a nice guy and a solid rider but he wasn't exactly among the best grand tour riders of 2006.

If we wanted to go backwards, how far do we go? Do we fix an arbitrary point in time (say 1972 following the example of the Hour record) and say that teams are only allowed the communication technology available then?

Why don't we ban all team cars and forms of assistance? That would make it unpredictable and hilarious. Riders would have to carry spare tubs and repair punctures on the roadside. Then the results will be a complete lottery. Is that what we want?

Or instead why don't we just embrace technology (as long as its safe and legal and moral) and see how the sports naturally develops. I haven't noticed a shortage of exciting races over the last few years.

Arkibal

terongi wrote:

I am having trouble working out what people think will be achieved by banning radios.

Looking at this thread, it seems to be that people want their pro-racing to be either unpredicatble or "hilarious".

As far as I can work out, there have always been systems for riders and DSs to communicate among themselves and to each other, ever since team tactics started to matter in pro-cycling. the system of earpiece radios is just more sophisticated (and less dangerous) than sending a domestique back to the team car for information, instructions etc.

Sounds to me like radios can make it safer (warning of hazards, crashes, weather etc)

What exactly is the problem with all this?

Do we really want our races to be decided by miscalculations based on lack of information? It might be "fun" to watch, but is that what the sport is really about?

Those sorts of miscalculations happen even with radios. That's how Oscar Pereiro won the TdF 06 (if you take Landis out of the equation altogether). Do we want more of those kind of results? I mean Oscar's a nice guy and a solid rider but he wasn't exactly among the best grand tour riders of 2006.

If we wanted to go backwards, how far do we go? Do we fix an arbitrary point in time (say 1972 following the example of the Hour record) and say that teams are only allowed the communication technology available then?

Why don't we ban all team cars and forms of assistance? That would make it unpredictable and hilarious. Riders would have to carry spare tubs and repair punctures on the roadside. Then the results will be a complete lottery. Is that what we want?

Or instead why don't we just embrace technology (as long as its safe and legal and moral) and see how the sports naturally develops. I haven't noticed a shortage of exciting races over the last few years.

+1 well said

MrChuck

eh wrote:

I've always wondered how many tours LA may not have won without radios? He regularly asked the team car for advice based on them watch the TV coverage

They weren't exactly Disco's secret weapon though were they? Everyone else had the same at their disposal.

And another +1 for terongi.

Martin Van Nostrand

Term1te wrote:

How about supplying the radios to the TV commentators, like they do on F1. Then everyone could hear what is being said. It would have no impact on any "safety" aspects of the radios, but the teams would have to be a little more careful on tactical talk. We could also spend hours dissecting every word looking for the secret codes, or arguing over the exact translation of each message. Hours of extra fun.

For God's sake, don't look to F1 to see how to make a sport interesting.

Zzz

mididoctors

terongi wrote:

I am having trouble working out what people think will be achieved by banning radios.

Looking at this thread, it seems to be that people want their pro-racing to be either unpredicatble or "hilarious".

As far as I can work out, there have always been systems for riders and DSs to communicate among themselves and to each other, ever since team tactics started to matter in pro-cycling. the system of earpiece radios is just more sophisticated (and less dangerous) than sending a domestique back to the team car for information, instructions etc.

Sounds to me like radios can make it safer (warning of hazards, crashes, weather etc)

What exactly is the problem with all this?

its been suggested that removing DS control via two way communication does not preclude earpiece race radio so the safety issue is bogus..

presently the DS relays the race radio information on safety matters crashes etc.. so in fact safety information is LESS reliable that a direct race radio link because its dependent on the DS to pass it on..

the safety argument is a non starter

Do we really want our races to be decided by miscalculations based on lack of information? It might be "fun" to watch, but is that what the sport is really about?

Those sorts of miscalculations happen even with radios. That's how Oscar Pereiro won the TdF 06 (if you take Landis out of the equation altogether). Do we want more of those kind of results? I mean Oscar's a nice guy and a solid rider but he wasn't exactly among the best grand tour riders of 2006.

oscar "won" because the yellow jersey tested positive after handing him the jersey by calling a promanade the day before ...with or Without radios the race was f**ked up..

If we wanted to go backwards, how far do we go? Do we fix an arbitrary point in time (say 1972 following the example of the Hour record) and say that teams are only allowed the communication technology available then?

Why don't we ban all team cars and forms of assistance? That would make it unpredictable and hilarious. Riders would have to carry spare tubs and repair punctures on the roadside. Then the results will be a complete lottery. Is that what we want?

Or instead why don't we just embrace technology (as long as its safe and legal and moral) and see how the sports naturally develops

.

the notion of going backwards is another false argument.. riders could have all the access to race information present AND future technology could delver.... the issue is micro management by DS and the removal of decision making by the riders

character.. hilarious and fun are words to describe the spectacle of the riders character and wit being on display as part of his prowess as a rider..

not a allusion to a farce like the landis tour which has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

I haven't noticed a shortage of exciting races over the last few years.

hmmm

I think racing has suffered because of DS micro management especially grand tour where controlling a race is made substantially easier by two way communication. and breaking the status quo of a leaders jersey is far harder especially given te speed DS's can make deals on the road and implement them almost without delay... it is a massive dis-incentive to "aggressive attacking riding" because a calculation to attack based on a opposing teams strength has to be tempered by the realization other teams can be "bought" with-in the time frame of a mobile phone call

look at the ToC where quickstep where brought to bear chasing down the beak on stage 8... ok politics are part of the sport and having quickstep ride for astana is ok in my book ,,,,,but the speed they could arrange this deal after it became apparent astana wasn't bringing the guys back neutralized the GC race..killed it dead.. imagine if the gap had grown by a further minute before quickstep could be brought to bear

better race in my book

YMMV