At what racing category level does the drug abuse begin?

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Comments

  • eh
    eh Posts: 4,854
    Homer J wrote:
    I'm a cat 3 rider and often wonder if some riders are on something, especially when it's an E/1/2/3 race and you look at the build and performance of some of these guys. Maybe it's just down to hard work and good diet. Maybe i should lay off the pies!!


    KKspeeder wrote:No, your original observation is correct. MAny of them dope.

    I'm sorry this is absolute rubbish, maybe one or two right at the top but for 95+% in GB domestic racing this simply isn't true. God you'd have to be a seriously sh*t 1/2/3 cat to require needing PEDs. Other countries maybe different such as Belgium, with the difference not being that GB riders are somehow better humans or whatever, but simply because most GB racers are amateur and race for fun, whereas in Belgium many use it as a living or see it as a chance to make a living. And in the case of the latter results really do matter.
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    forearms Van Petegem wrote:
    Kléber wrote:
    forearms Van Petegem wrote:
    Anyone recognised changing morphology of any riders, no thickening brows and exaggerated bone structure? No?
    That's the thing, I don't. I see Hoy, Staff, Edgar and the others and don't see the tell-tale signs of HGH abuse.

    I have seen some pics of riders from about 8 years back. The younger riders, they will not manifest the changes for a few years.

    Also a guy on the road starting to look different through the mouth and mandible. Ofcourse, this is pretty tenuous, I don't hold this as evidence.

    But I thought Uncle Bob has made Columbia clean!
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • Martin Van Nostrand
    Martin Van Nostrand Posts: 149
    forearms Van Petegem wrote:
    Also a guy on the road starting to look different through the mouth and mandible. Of course, this is pretty tenuous, I don't hold this as evidence.

    I don't know who started that myth, but abnormal bone growth is not a side-effect of HGH.

    side effects:

    * Edema (retention of fluids) in extremities
    * Arthralgia (joint pain)
    * Carpal tunnel syndrome
    * Hypertension
    * Diabetes and other glucose metabolism imbalances
    * Gynecomastia (enlargement of male mammary glands)

    Keep vigilant for man boobs.
    http://commiecanuck.blogspot.com/
  • KKspeeder
    KKspeeder Posts: 111
    Martin Van Nostrand wrote:
    forearms Van Petegem wrote:
    Also a guy on the road starting to look different through the mouth and mandible. Of course, this is pretty tenuous, I don't hold this as evidence.

    I don't know who started that myth, but abnormal bone growth is not a side-effect of HGH.

    side effects:

    * Edema (retention of fluids) in extremities
    * Arthralgia (joint pain)
    * Carpal tunnel syndrome
    * Hypertension
    * Diabetes and other glucose metabolism imbalances
    * Gynecomastia (enlargement of male mammary glands)

    Keep vigilant for man boobs.

    Indeed, colon & prostate cancer.
  • forearms Van Petegem
    forearms Van Petegem Posts: 151
    Martin Van Nostrand wrote:
    forearms Van Petegem wrote:
    Also a guy on the road starting to look different through the mouth and mandible. Of course, this is pretty tenuous, I don't hold this as evidence.

    I don't know who started that myth, but abnormal bone growth is not a side-effect of HGH.

    side effects:

    * Edema (retention of fluids) in extremities
    * Arthralgia (joint pain)
    * Carpal tunnel syndrome
    * Hypertension
    * Diabetes and other glucose metabolism imbalances
    * Gynecomastia (enlargement of male mammary glands)

    Keep vigilant for man boobs.

    Well, you only have to see the James Bond villians who suffer from gigantism or acromegaly, and then look at WWE wrestlers, and professional bodybuilders to see that the bone structure in the face, does indeed change.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    HGH abuse does cause gigantism/acromegaly.
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    edited March 2009
    eh wrote:
    KKspeeder wrote:No, your original observation is correct. MAny of them dope.
    I'm sorry this is absolute rubbish, maybe one or two right at the top but for 95+% in GB domestic racing this simply isn't true.
    The be fair, I think KK is talking about his experiences of the culture of doping in the lower categories in the USA, a country where, according to the film 'Bigger, Stronger, Faster', doping is 'As American as apple pie' and the willingness to dope is 'just a side effect of being American', a natural part of desire to 'kick ass', dominate and be an all-conquering, commie-crushing 'hero' like Rocky, Rambo and Arnie.

    'Bigger, Stronger, Faster' is available via a torrent file at the moment and it is really worth watching. As Martin has already pointed out, the film gives an interesting insight into the sort of culture and outlook that helped to create the likes of Armstrong, who was born in Plano, Texas, which is where a part of the film is set.

    There are some interesting insights into drug use in other areas in the US as well, as with the observation that the habit American pilots have of bombing their own and allied forces may well be due to the fact that American fighter pilots habitually fly whilst using amphetamines. It appears that this is even officially sanctioned!
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    P.s there are some interesting notes on 'Bigger, Stronger, Faster' available at:

    http://www.vervepics.com/docs/bsfnotes.pdf

    'At its heart, is the story of director Christopher Bell and his two brothers, who grew up idolising muscular giants like Hulk Hogan, Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger. To both Bell and his brothers, the ‘don’t mess with the U.S’ Reagan years were a call to ripped, bulging arms, and all three went on to become members of the steroid-subculture in an effort to realise their American Dream. But what Bell discovers, through interviews, news, movie and cartoon footage, as well as home video of the Bell family, is a country in which it’s literally impossible to win if you play by the rules, because winners almost always cheat.

    ...A sobering and timely meditation on what the U.S has become as a country, Bigger, Stronger, Faster is an unflinching exploration of a win-at-all-costs culture that can only define itself in the superlative – as the biggest, strongest fastest in the world.'
  • KKspeeder
    KKspeeder Posts: 111
    edited March 2009
    eh wrote:
    Homer J wrote:
    I'm a cat 3 rider and often wonder if some riders are on something, especially when it's an E/1/2/3 race and you look at the build and performance of some of these guys. Maybe it's just down to hard work and good diet. Maybe i should lay off the pies!!


    KKspeeder wrote:No, your original observation is correct. MAny of them dope.

    I'm sorry this is absolute rubbish, maybe one or two right at the top but for 95+% in GB domestic racing this simply isn't true. God you'd have to be a seriously sh*t 1/2/3 cat to require needing PEDs. Other countries maybe different such as Belgium, with the difference not being that GB riders are somehow better humans or whatever, but simply because most GB racers are amateur and race for fun, whereas in Belgium many use it as a living or see it as a chance to make a living. And in the case of the latter results really do matter.

    Who says they need the drugs? OF course they dont. Their ego's need drugs. Maybe several per race, but likely not less than a few if its a big field with lots of prize money!

    Doping is rampant, accepted & just look at the U-23 riders clawing their way onto the 'LiveStrong' Astana feeder team despite knowing Lance is a blood doper.

    USADA was told by Matt Decanio to test Miami based cycling clubs for EPO & Test (!) after getting a report a cat 5 was using EPO (!!!!) They didnt because USADA doesnt care & anti-doping is fake.... and low cats continue to abuse their way to the top.

    Its all around the world too. Britain is not exempt from drug users. Sustainable based power gains are the NUMBER ONE in EPO or blood doping. Britain has been renowned for TTs all through the height of EPO at the pro level.

    And the amateurs aspire to be great TT riders too.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Trust me KK, British racing is so relaxed and amateurish that few are doping. In most races maybe a few guys will be downing a few coffees before or even "jacking" on a couple of caffeine tablets but it's no more than that. Maybe some waste their money on creatine.

    As an aside, a friend of a friend who is a club rugby player once called me up asking for doping advice, thinking all cyclists must have the inside deal on doping. I was a student at the time and for some reason a neighbour was selling herbal remedies and left some samples in my kitchen before I could stop their sales patter.

    I was going to put them in the bin but during the phone call the bottle of laxatives shone back at me. So I said "Rob, give me a couple of days and I'll see you right".

    "Take one to two pills" said the label. I scraped the label clean off the bottle, to leave these large, anonymous, beige capsules. Rob dropped by two days later and collected the brown bottle. I said "take 4 about 30 minutes before your game, you'll really feel the difference". Employing the "more is better" idea, he swallowed six pills and started the game but halfway through the first half had to sprint off pitch, only he didn't make to the pavillion before his shorts erupted. :lol:
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    aurelio wrote:
    [
    The be fair, I think KK is talking about his experiences of the culture of doping in the lower categories in the USA, a country where, according to the film 'Bigger, Stronger, Faster', doping is 'As American as apple pie' and the willingness to dope is 'just a side effect of being American', a natural part of desire to 'kick ass', dominate and be an all-conquering, commie-crushing 'hero' like Rocky, Rambo and Arnie.

    'quote]

    You really do like your anti american stereotypes dont ya, what other nationalities do you specialise in with this kind of thing ? Germans ? British ? French ? Go on you can tell us...........


    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • calvjones
    calvjones Posts: 3,850
    To be fair to Aurelio, he appears to be quoting from the film here.
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    calvjones wrote:
    To be fair to Aurelio, he appears to be quoting from the film here.
    Exactly so, but Moray is clearly not one to let such facts get in the way of his prejudices and preconceptions. Perhaps Moray feels that the Americans in the film are also 'Anti-American' despite so obviously believing wholeheartedly in God, Arnie, Rambo and 'The American Way'.

    Then again, to some people being critical in any way of anything to do with America, from it's invasion of Iraq to it's kidnap and torture network (euphemistically called 'rendition') is proof of being 'Anti-American'. :roll:
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    aurelio wrote:
    calvjones wrote:
    To be fair to Aurelio, he appears to be quoting from the film here.
    Exactly so, but Moray is clearly not one to let such facts get in the way of his prejudices and preconceptions. Perhaps Moray feels that the Americans in the film are also 'Anti-American' despite so obviously believing wholeheartedly in God, Arnie, Rambo and 'The American Way'.

    Then again, to some people being critical in any way of anything to do with America, from it's invasion of Iraq to it's kidnap and torture network (euphemistically called 'rendition') is proof of being 'Anti-American'. :roll:

    To be fair your strong anti american views are well known on here so the without seeing the film and going by what youve posted previously its just seems to be echoing you.If the cap fits and all that.

    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    "If the cap fits" MG? So long as it's not a Liberty Seguros cap, eh? :wink:
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    Moray Gub wrote:
    without seeing the film
    Translation: 'speaking from a position of ignorance...'
    Moray Gub wrote:
    ...its just seems to be echoing you...
    Yeah, those on the film you haven't seen are all SO anti-American! :roll:

    Anyhow, back to reality. Here is a great American hero of mine...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi4DsIveSCI

    and...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pgyACdT1rM
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    aurelio wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    without seeing the film
    Translation: 'speaking from a position of ignorance...'

    Moray Gub wrote:
    ...its just seems to be echoing you...
    Yeah, those on the film you haven't seen are all SO anti-American! :roll:

    Anyhow, back to reality. Here is a great American hero of mine...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi4DsIveSCI

    and...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pgyACdT1rM

    Im am not ignorant regarding how you view americans in general your posts are there for all to see. Anyway on the tube vids a few stereotypes for you to latch onto there.


    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Im am not ignorant regarding how you view americans in general your posts are there for all to see. Anyway on the tube vids a few stereotypes for you to latch onto there.
    As I said earlier, to some people being critical in any way of anything to do with America is 'proof' of 'Anti-Americanism'. This appears to include yourself. (I particularly liked the way the Republicans tried to portray voting for Obama as being 'Anti-American!).

    It is also interesting how you extrapolate a few off-hand comments I might have made about, how did I once put it, 'Republicans, white supremacists, gun nuts and right-wing, fundamentalist Christians' as representing 'Americans in general'. I would regard such individuals as representing something very different to what the USA is supposed to stand for, and yet in your view it seems that such people actually define what it is to be 'American' and ergo, to criticise them is to be ‘Anti-American’. :roll:

    I know that the Americans I am friends with and work would, like me, regard the views of such groups, not to mention the policies of the Republican’s in places such as Iraq, as being wholly unrepresentative of what ‘true’ American values are all about, and in turn would find your gross generalisations rather insulting.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    aurelio wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Im am not ignorant regarding how you view americans in general your posts are there for all to see. Anyway on the tube vids a few stereotypes for you to latch onto there.
    As I said earlier, to some people being critical in any way of anything to do with America is 'proof' of 'Anti-Americanism'. This appears to include yourself. (I particularly liked the way the Republicans tried to portray voting for Obama as being 'Anti-American!).

    It is also interesting how you extrapolate a few off-hand comments I might have made about, how did I once put it, 'Republicans, white supremacists, gun nuts and right-wing, fundamentalist Christians' as representing 'Americans in general'. I would regard such individuals as representing something very different to what the USA is supposed to stand for, and yet in your view it seems that such people actually define what it is to be 'American' and ergo, to criticise them is to be ‘Anti-American’. :roll:

    I know that the Americans I am friends with and work would, like me, regard the views of such groups, not to mention the policies of the Republican’s in places such as Iraq, as being wholly unrepresentative of what ‘true’ American values are all about, and in turn would find your gross generalisations rather insulting.

    The way i see you is that you do tend to generalise americans to be along the lines as yove said above Republicans, white supremacists, gun nuts and right-wing, fundamentalist Christians who have an inbred hatred of Europeans in particular France .Indeed if you take a step back and read your rants you will see what i mean.


    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    edited March 2009
    Moray Gub wrote:
    The way i see you is that you do tend to generalise americans to be along the lines as yove said above Republicans, white supremacists, gun nuts and right-wing, fundamentalist Christians who have an inbred hatred of Europeans in particular France.
    I feel that this may well be turning into a discussion of semantics. I take it that you fully accept that I have never suggested that the sorts of groups you list above represent all Americans. I take it that you would also accept that I have never claimed that such groups represent even a majority of Americans? If so what do you mean by 'generalise'? As far as I recall most of the criticisms I have been made have been far from general, referring to such specific groups as ‘Lance Armstrong fanboys’ and so on.

    Also, do you really think that one should refrain from criticising the attitudes of any group in a given society, even if they form a significant percentage of the population? For example, you spoke earlier of 'stereotypes' in relation to that Peekskill video. Do you really believe that such attitudes are now nothing but history in the US, and do you really feel that anyone who brings up a subject such as racism in the US is showing evidence of 'Anti-Americanism'?

    Come to that, what in your mind represents the 'Americanism' you are so keen to defend?
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    edited March 2009
    P.s. MG, in your view, are the Americans who run this site guilty of 'Anti-Americanism'?

    http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

    Is the Dane who complied this site guilty of 'Anti-Americanism'?

    http://www.american-pictures.com/english/

    Is the American academic who wrote the following book guilty of 'Anti-Americanism'?

    http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

    In the following report is the American newscaster Keith Olbermann guilty of 'Anti-Americanism?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyOeZ_k83K8
  • KKspeeder
    KKspeeder Posts: 111
    I think that Lance has been jacked through the roof since he was 16 and that should be the topic of conversation...

    When did Lance start doping? When did it begin? Was his failed steroid test under Dr. Wade Exum in 1992 when he started using anabolic steroids or was he as a triathlete too?
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    KKspeeder wrote:
    I think that Lance has been jacked through the roof since he was 16 and that should be the topic of conversation...
    I would have thought that Armstrong, whilst a doper, was not 'jacked through the roof' until he teamed up with Ferrari, hence the unbelievable improvement in his climbing and Time Trial performances. However, I agree with your general point.

    The problem is that some, and Moray in particular, have repeatedly tried to sideline discussions about Armstrong's doping by claiming that, as he is an American, any criticism of him is nothing more than 'anti-Americanism'. It would be nice to think that debunking such fatuous claims would see an end to such twaddle, but it seems that the likes of MG are determined to keep on repeating such nonsense regardless.

    As I have said, many Americans I know would find the way MG seems to regard the attitudes of the Republicans, right-wing fundamentalists and so on as actually defining what it is to be American to be quite insulting, although I guess many Republicans would approve of his stance. It is also interesting that he should regard the views expressed in 'Bigger, faster stronger' as being wholly negative and 'Anti-American'. If anything this simply exposes his own negative attitudes towards the Rambo/Arnie 'Kick ass' and 'Don't mess with the US' mindset. I am sure that many in the US regard such attitudes as being wholly positive and admirable!

    I also wonder why MG didn’t try to claim that my suggestion that right-wing authoritarianism has long been a part of the English psyche (even to the point of showing strong sympathies with Fascism) was nothing more than an expression of ‘Anti-Englishness’? Ironically, MG’s determination to ridicule and marginalise criticisms of Armstrong itself reeks of such authoritarianism. It's also a favourite ploy of those who want to marginalise those who speak out on the issue of road safety. For example, claiming that such people are motivated purely by a 'hatred of motorists' and so on.

    Anyhow, back to the doping. :wink:
  • KKspeeder
    KKspeeder Posts: 111
    I liked John McCain because he wanted to go after drug abuse in baseball.... And baseball has been America's sport. I thought he wanted to help. Decanio wrote MCcain off as "fake anti-doper." Whatever.

    LeMond supported Obama though. AS he says here:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... r_taylor08

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/newsphotos.p ... or08/MT002

    "In 2004, when McCain was chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee, his panel held a high-profile hearing on the subject, and McCain's scrutiny helped force Major League Baseball owners to implement a new drug-testing policy. McCain said the following year that the league "can't be trusted" to handle the issue on its own, and threatened to write legislation cracking down on performance-enhancing drugs. A House committee also held highly publicized hearings on steroids in baseball in 2007."

    http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation ... al-ca.html

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