On-the-spot points for careless driving

always_tyred

They should start wearing tit shaped helmets again to make people think they are taller than they actually are. That'll scare those scallywags.

robmanic1

DonDaddyD wrote:

Robmanic1 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

[
You've taken offence, I'm sorry. I don't think there is anything wrong with your ideology but it works on the assumption that police opinion is infallible and that they only arrest people who have broken the law. Your ideology implies that police never make mitakes. That's what I find naive.

No offence taken DDD, I enjoy a good debate as much as the next forumite

I admit I am edging towards devils advocatism on this, but, in principle a good idea, in practice of course, it will never work and will inevitably lead to abuse.
I'm thinking of a time when a "clip" around the ear by your local, rosy-cheeked, big mustacheo'd bobby was enough to show your average con the error of his ways, and no mistake.

I agree, with you. I also agree that police officers have lost their fear factor with the youth of today (my generation 20something) and younger. I cannot help but think its becaue they (the police) abused their 'powers' with my Fathers Generation (40something) they made themselves a threat so people lost respect for them,quickly.

Also social values have changed a bobby on the beat just doesn't carry the same level of respect anymore.

Sh1t, I AM your father's generation :shock:

Clever Pun

Always Tyred wrote:

They should start wearing tit shaped helmets again to make people think they are taller than they actually are. That'll scare those scallywags.

and give them to pregnant ladies when they need to pee

Kenjaja1

I can understand and sympathise with both sides in this debate.

On the one hand there is a small but significant minority of drivers who drive carelessly and who do not seem to give a toss about the safety of others (or even themselves). The current court-based system is expensive cumbersome and would use a lot of police time - if the police used it as much as they should. We obviously need to penalise bad drivers and encourage the good guys.

On the other hand I have grave concerns about the power the police have these days - and the way they use and abuse that power. I am thinking of legislation passed and used just to remove Brian Haw (the Peace Protester) to be far enough from Parlaiment to save the embarassment of our politicians. I am also thinking of the attempt to ban the critical mass in London - in the "interests of national security" and instigated by a senior officer who is supposed to concern himself with serious crime. There are plenty of other examples.

At the moment I cannot see an easy solution other than a continuous series of campaigns to improve driving standards. Even this will leave a residue of drivers who, having failed to raise their game by encouragement, need the stick of a penalty based system.

Driving in the UK is a long way from being the worst in the World - but it is also not the best. Does anyone know how other countries deal with this and how successful they are?

A very positive aspect of this is that the Department of Transport has recognised the problem and has produced the a consultation paper. If enough intelligent thought and debate is given to the matter then maybe it will lead to an improvement in driving standards.

always_tyred

Clever Pun wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

They should start wearing tit shaped helmets again to make people think they are taller than they actually are. That'll scare those scallywags.

and give them to pregnant ladies when they need to pee

It was never established to my satisfaction that any pregnant ladies actually had permission, or, indeed that any of the ladies were actually pregnant. That's why they stopped wearing them.

You know what they say; to be assured of not causing offence, NEVER ask a lady if she's pregnant unless you can actually see a baby coming out.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Kenjaja1 wrote:

At the moment I cannot see an easy solution other than a continuous series of campaigns to improve driving standards.

Here's one (not really a campaign, as such).

You have to retake your driving licence every five years. If you fail, you lose your licence until you can pass.

I'd sign up to this. And frankly, if I failed, I'd be happy to hand over my licence until I could show I could pass.

itboffin

Greg66 wrote:

Kenjaja1 wrote:

At the moment I cannot see an easy solution other than a continuous series of campaigns to improve driving standards.

Here's one (not really a campaign, as such).

You have to retake your driving licence every five years. If you fail, you lose your licence until you can pass.

I'd sign up to this. And frankly, if I failed, I'd be happy to hand over my licence until I could show I could pass.

+1

very wise words, just think of the cash they could generate and perhaps even spend it on road repairs, not to mention the improvement of road safety.

If only we could actually make it a reality.

jimmypippa

"If you are innocent, then you have nothing to worry about and nothing to hide"

To which Julian Baggini answers, "So you don't mind me bugging your bedroom then? If you are innocent, then you have nothing to hide."

I am agianst ID cards on the civil liberties arguments, and against expanding of summary justice for the same reason (with the examples given above, and more) and for further issues.

Biometric ID will make terrorist attacks easier, and will be a boon to organised crime.

Most of the time they will work, so people will be doing what people are bad at and machines are good at, which is monitoring. Because errors will be rare, people will be more likely to miss them.

With resources, it is possible (even easy) to hack the chip in a passport. (article in the Times here)

From The Times
August 6, 2008
‘Fakeproof’ e-passport is cloned in minutes

Steve Boggan

New microchipped passports designed to be foolproof against identity theft can be cloned and manipulated in minutes and accepted as genuine by the computer software recommended for use at international airports.

In the tests, a computer researcher cloned the chips on two British passports and implanted digital images of Osama bin Laden and a suicide bomber. The altered chips were then passed as genuine by passport reader software used by the UN agency that sets standards for e-passports.

How will someone prove that they are not the person whose passport/ID card was used for committing a crime?

Biometric data can also be faked, (Guardian "Badscience" article here)

Unfortunately, a team of mathematicians published a paper in April this year, showing that they could reconstruct a fingerprint from this data alone. In fact, they printed out the images they made, and then - crucially, completing the circle - used them to fool fingerprint readers.

But these are just technical objections when the big one is that I can't see the checks and balences in allowing on the spot points for this: The legislature should be separate from the justice system, which should be separate from law enforcement, this helps protect against human nature and abuse within any of these three systems.

The Chingford Skinhead

Whoa, calm down calm down

No need to panic Mr Manwaring - I regularly see people on phones in cars and / or speeding with police officers in cars totally ignoring the crime. Motorists have nothing to fear, the police really can't be bothered. Far more interesting to investigate the thankfully rare murders etc than to deal with the cause of over 3000 deaths and 27000 serious injuries a year. Odd really, given that statistically the people most likely to break driving laws are those most likely to be involved in other law breaking....

Greg66 wrote:

Kenjaja1 wrote:

At the moment I cannot see an easy solution other than a continuous series of campaigns to improve driving standards.

Here's one (not really a campaign, as such).

You have to retake your driving licence every five years. If you fail, you lose your licence until you can pass.

I'd sign up to this. And frankly, if I failed, I'd be happy to hand over my licence until I could show I could pass.

Great in theiory Greg - however there are already over 1/2m "illegal" drivers n Britain at the moment. Removing licences would just increase that number.

- I';m not supporting giving the police more powers - have a young lad at work who is doing some police training and the power has gone completely to his heaad.... I oftern think that police officers - and indeed lawyers etc shouldn't be allowed to go into the profession until they've done at least 5-10 years in a different job. It would a) mean they go into the job a lot more mature and b) understand how the world works


Ah - another reason the police won't be keen to enforce traffic offences - can you guess which professions are the worst offenders for traffic violations. Yup that would be the legal profession and police officers...

DavidTQ

Perhaps police should only be able to hand out these on the spot fines if they have a camera recording of the "incident" as evidence. Only officers sent out on traffic duty would need to be so equipped, and a helmet cam type device is diddly squat on the budget compared to the annual salary of an officer. The officers then get greater power whilst the public gets the protection of video evidence being available should they feel aggreived about the officers judgement. The helmet cam gives the police rock solid evidence and protects the public from the "officer having a bad day"

With regards to Greg66's friend I remember being broken down late on a saturday night waiting for a recovery, I was driving a Capri at the time (yes I did have a thing about capris back then :oops: ), I also had 4 police cars stop, they didnt seem to have any concerns about the safety of the situation, for me though it wasnt one appear then dissapear then the next one come along, oh no, I had the first one turn up give the car a good checking over quizzing me, then another one passing pulling in a little chatting they then get out of the car, and quiz me, then a third pulls up and quizzez me, by this point they are blocking a main road, then a fourth turns up, 4 cars a shed load of officers to "deal with" a broken down car. The end results of all that policing effort on a saturday night? a form requesting that I take my documents to the station... Im white. I think my only "crime" was being relatively young with what was "in the day" a relatively powerful car (3.0 V6 aah I hate to think how much something like that would cost a youngman to insure today )