Was I in the wrong/being careless?

XxxBFGxxX

what is it with van drivers, i had a incerdent yesterday were one actualy stereared his van ito me and then got anoyued coz i chased him and took his mirrir for boxxing lessons.

why cant they just leave us alone.

iain_j

Cos they're WVM.

There's been an advert on the radio the last few days for a van dealer. It ends with something like "so mirror signal manoeuvre your way down here". I think the pun would be lost on your average WVM

always_tyred

iain_j wrote:

Cos they're WVM.

There's been an advert on the radio the last few days for a van dealer. It ends with something like "so mirror signal manoeuvre your way down here". I think the pun would be lost on your average WVM

Is there a certain point in life where a WVM has a moment of realisation where it dawns on them that they are a WVM and that they have no great puropose in life? Is this why they are so angry?

Or is it that they are blissfully ignorant and think that they are friggin' great, and that the Red Sea should part for them, as of right.

DonDaddyD

prj45 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Let me give you a similar scenario:

On Monday I was essentially undertaking slow moving traffic. A guy steps appears on the right from the front of a lorry (so he was crossing the road). I couldn't see him in time to brake so smack I crashed into him. Lucky for him it was raining and I made it a point to go slow, had it been today given the weather, I'd have gone straight through him.

You're a dick then, and riding like a tw*t, do you drive a white van in your spare time?

You're supposed to ride so you can stop in the distance you see to be clear.

Before anything else, read the two bits I put in bold. Step away from the computer, walk to a mirror, look at yourself and think "I should read things more carefully".

Riding slow in rain... Yeah that sure sounds like riding like a tw*t.

Firstly, I think it's pathetic to think it acceptible to sit there hiding behind your computer insulting me. If I made a mistake fine, this is the place to ask advice, share experiences and learn. It's not the place to be insulted because someone has a blinkered opinion, especially considering they have no prior knowledge of the road I was on.

Secondly, read below:

Me wrote:

consider that not every situation is the same and not every road demands that HGV's are a massive threat.

I said slow moving, it was, but at the moment of my incident the traffic had come to a complete stop with no sign of moving again for a while. There was no minor road for the lorry to turn onto it was pretty much straight. The lorry could not move. Under those circumstances I felt it was safe to undertake the lorry.

I could see the road ahead clearly, the lights ahead were red (even if they went green vehicles couldn't move) and experience of the road is that sticking to the left is safer than riding on the right and it is pretty large for people to cross anywhere but the crossing.

Thirdly, it is incredibly naive to believe that you can travel so slow as to be prepared to stop for every possible eventuality. Car's swing out unexpectedly - from minor roads or simply to switch lanes, people step out into traffic without warning. As was the case with me. That's how road accidents often happen. I, however, was also going slow enough to crash into this person and not knock him over - I'm 15 stone so I must have be going relatively slow.

Think before you self-righteously preach.

hondafanatic

prj45 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Let me give you a similar scenario:

On Monday I was essentially undertaking slow moving traffic. A guy steps appears on the right from the front of a lorry (so he was crossing the road). I couldn't see him in time to brake so smack I crashed into him. Lucky for him it was raining and I made it a point to go slow, had it been today given the weather, I'd have gone straight through him.

You're a dick then, and riding like a tw*t, do you drive a white van in your spare time?

You're supposed to ride so you can stop in the distance you see to be clear.

You're ace you are...I wish I was as ace as you.

oliven_99

The other thing is that the "cycle lanes" (or more likely white painted lines) are so full of rubbish, glass/debris/litter etc that it makes it very dangerous to ride in them.

My commute to work this morning consisted of a couple of miles of these "cycle lanes" and they were so full of ice it was more sensible to ride on the main highway as that had been cleared by the helpful drivers

I've only just started to ride to work and my commute home involves a lot of traffic at a particular roundabout which I have to turn left at. Previously I've ridden on the left but I've had drivers specifically move over to stop me undertaking.

After whinging about this to other cyclists at work I've decided to ride down the centre of the carriageways as it will be easier for me to be visible.

don_don

DonDaddyD wrote:

prj45 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Let me give you a similar scenario:

On Monday I was essentially undertaking slow moving traffic. A guy steps appears on the right from the front of a lorry (so he was crossing the road). I couldn't see him in time to brake so smack I crashed into him. Lucky for him it was raining and I made it a point to go slow, had it been today given the weather, I'd have gone straight through him.

You're a dick then, and riding like a tw*t, do you drive a white van in your spare time?

You're supposed to ride so you can stop in the distance you see to be clear.

Before anything else, read the two bits I put in bold. Step away from the computer, walk to a mirror, look at yourself and think "I should read things more carefully".

Riding slow in rain... Yeah that sure sounds like riding like a tw*t.

Firstly, I think it's pathetic to think it acceptible to sit there hiding behind your computer insulting me. If I made a mistake fine, this is the place to ask advice, share experiences and learn. It's not the place to be insulted because someone has a blinkered opinion, especially considering they have no prior knowledge of the road I was on.

Secondly, read below:

Me wrote:

consider that not every situation is the same and not every road demands that HGV's are a massive threat.

I said slow moving, it was, but at the moment of my incident the traffic had come to a complete stop with no sign of moving again for a while. There was no minor road for the lorry to turn onto it was pretty much straight. The lorry could not move. Under those circumstances I felt it was safe to undertake the lorry.

I could see the road ahead clearly, the lights ahead were red (even if they went green vehicles couldn't move) and experience of the road is that sticking to the left is safer than riding on the right and it is pretty large for people to cross anywhere but the crossing.

Thirdly, it is incredibly naive to believe that you can travel so slow as to be prepared to stop for every possible eventuality. Car's swing out unexpectedly - from minor roads or simply to switch lanes, people step out into traffic without warning. As was the case with me. That's how road accidents often happen. I, however, was also going slow enough to crash into this person and not knock him over - I'm 15 stone so I must have be going relatively slow.

Think before you self-righteously preach.

Well DDD, I definitely took your post to be illustrating that filtering down the inside can be risky sometimes, so I think prj got the wrong end of the stick.

He must have been having a bad day

prj45

DonDaddyD wrote:

Before anything else, read the two bits I put in bold. Step away from the computer, walk to a mirror, look at yourself and think "I should read things more carefully".

I did read it carefully, especially the bit that said:

DonDaddyD wrote:

had it been today given the weather, I'd have gone straight through him.

Now, do you think that's a sensible way to ride a bike out from behind a vehicle on a street where pedestrians are crossing?

DonDaddyD

prj45 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

had it been today given the weather, I'd have gone straight through him.

Now, do you think that's a sensible way to ride a bike out from behind a vehicle on a street where pedestrians are crossing?

The short answer is yes. Had I been a car, motorcycle or moped - and it would be entirely plausible for it to have been one of these vehicles - they would have gone straight through him.

Anything above 12mph when you take my weight and size into consideration would go through some one. 12mph isn't really a stupid speed.

Do you think it was sensible for a pedestrian to be crossing a road of busy traffic, infront of a lorry thereby obscuring his visibility? Especially when there is a crossing a few meters from where he was crossing.

prj45

DonDaddyD wrote:

The short answer is yes

!

DonDaddyD wrote:

Do you think it was sensible for a pedestrian to be crossing a road of busy traffic, infront of a lorry thereby obscuring his visibility? Especially when there is a crossing a few meters from where he was crossing.

Ah, the "Well he shouldn't have been in the road" argument.

Made by WVM's the world over (with apologies to WVM's who actually care about their driving).

And do you think the "He shouldn't have been in the road " argument is usful when you're BOTH lying there with broken bones (or worse)?

If you come out from behind lorries at 20mph (as you said you do) then you are riding like a dick, sorry, no other way to describe it.

DonDaddyD

prj45 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Do you think it was sensible for a pedestrian to be crossing a road of busy traffic, infront of a lorry thereby obscuring his visibility? Especially when there is a crossing a few meters from where he was crossing.

Ah, the "Well he shouldn't have been in the road" argument.

Made by WVM's the world over (with apologies to WVM's who actually care about their driving).

And do you think the "He shouldn't have been in the road " argument is usful when you're BOTH lying there with broken bones?

If you come out from behind lorries at 20mph (as you said you do) then you are riding like a dick, sorry, no other way to describe it.

(i) I didn't actually use the 'well he shouldn't have been in the road argument'. I asked you if you thought his actions were sensible. Please try to keep to the point and not to trump up what I'm saying or make accusations to strengthen your point.

(ii) When and where in this thread or any have I said I overtake or undertake lorries at 20mph? In fact where have I attached in recent times a speed to my maneuvers?

What you are doing is assuming I ride to a particular style and at unsubstantiated speeds. So that bring me to:

(iii) Do you think it accurate if I call you a dick for making stupid assumptions?

prj45

DonDaddyD wrote:

I asked you if you thought his actions were sensible.

No, but only becuase there might be dicks on motorbikes or cycles coming up the inside of a vehicle at a stupid speed that means they will hit him.

You managed to strike the guy, and then went onto say if it had been dry you would've been going fast enought to "Go straight through him".

A sensible way to ride a bike?

DonDaddyD wrote:

had it been today given the weather, I'd have gone straight through him.

Were you embellishing the story somewhat, or on dry days do you really ride like that out from behind lorries on streets where pedestrians can cross the road?

prj45

don_don wrote:

Well DDD, I definitely took your post to be illustrating that filtering down the inside can be risky sometimes, so I think prj got the wrong end of the stick.

Too right it's risky, especially if done at a speed that means you would "go right through" a pedestrian who was in the road!

DonDaddyD

prj45 wrote:

No, but only becuase there might be dicks on motorbikes or cycles coming up the inside of a vehicle at a stupid speed that means they will hit him.

Lol, you've put yourself into a corner and pitifully (probably born out of blinkered pride) your sticking to name calling.

To which I'll simply remind you of this wonderful piece of clarity:

Me wrote:

Thirdly, it is incredibly naive to believe that you can travel so slow as to be prepared to stop for every possible eventuality. Car's swing out unexpectedly - from minor roads or simply to switch lanes, people step out into traffic without warning. As was the case with me. That's how road accidents often happen. I, however, was also going slow enough to crash into this person and not knock him over - I'm 15 stone so I must have be going relatively slow.

Clever Pun recently had an accident because someone pulled out infront of him - it wasn't his fault. Is he a dick. Jen J was felled by a dog running out in front of her is she a dick (or would that be a vagina, is your pathetic name calling gender specific?). This site is littered with instances where people or things jump out in front of them without warning and they (regardless of speed) are unable to stop are they all dicks?

You managed to strike the guy, and then went onto say if it had been dry you would've been going fast enought to "Go straight through him".

A sensible way to ride a bike?

Another moment of clarity:

Me wrote:

Anything above 12mph when you take my weight and size into consideration would go through someone. 12mph isn't really a stupid speed.

I mean honestly, anything over 10mph could knock someone over. There is a reason why there is distinction between the road and pavement what your proposing is that I stop get off my bike and carry it on my shoulder.

Were you embellishing the story somewhat, or on dry days do you really ride like that out from behind lorries on streets where pedestrians can cross the road?

See above, anything above 10/12mph would/could knock someone over and isn't particularly fast. Do remember that this guy stepped out from the front of a lorry (completely ignoring the green cross code) and I don't embellish my stories, ever.

Bear on a bike

From my experiance I make you entirely right in riding on the outside of the traffic.

However I was knocked off my bike by a minibus that pulled across me without indicating. My conversations with insurance companies since has involved them doubting if overtaking a queue of traffic is considered as safe. Apparently it matters what speed you are travelling at when overtaking.

The discussion about going up the inside or outside amuses me as pedestrians can appear from either side of a vehicle so I don't think it matters if you are overtaking on the left or the right. You do need to be careful but there is always one to surprise you. It's all a matter of timing and no matter how how slow you are riding if someone steps out right in front of you you will hit them. But then if you had been going faster you would have passed that point and wouldn't have known they were there!

prj45

DonDaddyD wrote:

I mean honestly, anything over 10mph could knock someone over. There is a reason why there is distinction between the road and pavement what your proposing is that I stop get off my bike and carry it on my shoulder.

Hmm, "right through him" indicates some speed to me, not 10 or 15mph.

Anyway, do you think it's a good idea to come out from behind what is effectively a blind corner at a speed that would mean you go "right though" a pedestrian?

If car drivers drove like that you'd be up in arms right?

prj45

Bear on a bike wrote:

But then if you had been going faster you would have passed that point and wouldn't have known they were there!

Brilliant, I see that argumnet used to justify speeding in cars all the time.

DonDaddyD

prj45 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

I mean honestly, anything over 10mph could knock someone over. There is a reason why there is distinction between the road and pavement what your proposing is that I stop get off my bike and carry it on my shoulder.

Hmm, "right through him" indicates some speed to me, not 10 or 15mph.

Anyway, do you think it's a good idea to come out from behind what is effectively a blind corner at a speed that would mean you go "right though" a pedestrian?

If car drivers drove like that you'd be up in arms right?

Sigh, I don't think you understand this. I was traveling straight down a main road on the inside of traffic. It was heavy traffic, the lights were red, the traffic wasn't moving and even if the lights were green the traffic still wouldn't have been moving.

It was raining and I was riding the brakes to keep my speed down. From in front of a lorry, to my right, a pedestrian stepped out in front of me, I crashed into him.

To draw example. The A23 (Streatham) has a bus lane, it is not uncommon for motorcycles, mopeds, bikes and taxi's to travel down through this lane while there is a long line of traffic had a pedestrian attempted to cross the road there it would be highly idiotic.

prj45

DonDaddyD wrote:

Sigh, I don't think you understand this. I was traveling straight down a main road on the inside of traffic. It was heavy traffic, the lights were red, the traffic wasn't moving and even if the lights were green the traffic still wouldn't have been moving.

It was raining and I was riding the brakes to keep my speed down. From in front of a lorry, to my right, a pedestrian stepped out in front of me, I crashed into him.

But you indicated that if it weren't raining you would have come out from behind the lorry at a much quicker pace and "gone straight though him".

Again, I ask, do you think that is a sensible way to ride a bike?

DonDaddyD

prj45 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Sigh, I don't think you understand this. I was traveling straight down a main road on the inside of traffic. It was heavy traffic, the lights were red, the traffic wasn't moving and even if the lights were green the traffic still wouldn't have been moving.

It was raining and I was riding the brakes to keep my speed down. From in front of a lorry, to my right, a pedestrian stepped out in front of me, I crashed into him.

But you indicated that if it weren't raining you would have come out from behind the lorry at a much quicker pace and "gone straight though him".

Again, I ask, do you think that is a sensible way to ride a bike?

And so I'll repeat what I said earlier:

The short answer is yes. Had I been a car, motorcycle or moped - and it would be entirely plausible for it to have been one of these vehicles - they would have gone straight through him.

Anything above 12mph when you take my weight and size into consideration would go through some one. 12mph isn't really a stupid speed.

Do you think it was sensible for a pedestrian to be crossing a road of busy traffic, infront of a lorry thereby obscuring his visibility? Especially when there is a crossing a few meters from where he was crossing.

prj45

DonDaddyD wrote:

And so I'll repeat what I said earlier:

The short answer is yes. Had I been a car, motorcycle or moped - and it would be entirely plausible for it to have been one of these vehicles - they would have gone straight through him.

Why don't you repeat what you said first?

Lucky for him it was raining and I made it a point to go slow, had it been today given the weather, I'd have gone straight through him.

_Brun_

DDD, just to clarify: Were you in a lane (cycle/bus etc) or filtering between stationary traffic and the kerb?

DonDaddyD

prj45 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

And so I'll repeat what I said earlier:

The short answer is yes. Had I been a car, motorcycle or moped - and it would be entirely plausible for it to have been one of these vehicles - they would have gone straight through him.

Why don't you repeat what you said first?

Lucky for him it was raining and I made it a point to go slow, had it been today given the weather, I'd have gone straight through him.

prj45, I honestly believe I've answered your questions and accusation sufficiently and with patience. I cannot help but feel that we are going around in circles and despite my willingness to admit where I may have gone wrong in order to learn and grow as a cyclist I feel you are incapable of displaying the same humility.

To answer your last and hopefully final question:

It was raining, I was riding the brakes which is why I didn't knock him over. Had the bike been free flowing at 10mph or above, had I pushed the cranks instead of freewheeling, I'd have knocked him over.

It is not uncommon to ride your bike on a main road.

DonDaddyD

_Brun_ wrote:

DDD, just to clarify: Were you in a lane (cycle/bus etc) or filtering between stationary traffic and the kerb?

The latter. I was riding the brakes. And the guy stepped out from the right in front of me. I couldn't stop it was unexpected. You really can't ride on the right hand-side of traffic because the road narrows and even if the lights on my road are red the junction a few meters ahead will ensure that traffic will always be heading towards you (on a narrow road) Coldharbour Lane - by the bridge near Brixton Market).

Now I would never ride that section of the road fast (for me that's 15mph and above) and maybe my original comment (had it been dry I'd have gone straight through him) may have been flippant but honestly I would never ride that road fast. But he did come from nowhere - didn't even creep forward or peep and check before he stepped completely in my path - and there was nothing I could do even though I was already riding the brakes .

prj45

DonDaddyD wrote:

and despite my willingness to admit where I may have gone wrong in order to learn and grow as a cyclist I feel you are incapable of displaying the same humility.

Er, you never admitted where you may have gone wrong (in what happened and your imaginary situation of what would have happened had it been dry), you spent your posts blaming somebody else.

DonDaddyD wrote:

It was raining, I was riding the brakes which is why I didn't knock him over. Had the bike been free flowing at 10mph or above, had I pushed the cranks instead of freewheeling, I'd have knocked him over.

Well, in your imaginary situation you should've been going slower at that point, about as slow as you were in the wet (although a little bit slower would've been good as you still managed to hit the guy).

Don't forget that if you knock somebody else over it's highly likely that you are going to come off too, and that's never a good idea, especially near a lorry.

I't highly inadvisable to filter then come out from behind a lorry in a London street pushing your cranks and not being ready to stop sharpish, whichever side of the road your are filtering on.

And you may see motorcyclists and other cyclists riding like that, but if you use that for justification for reckless cycling then you're a fool, as are they.

prj45

DonDaddyD wrote:

And the guy stepped out from the right in front of me. I couldn't stop it was unexpected.

You should expect it. I suspect you might from now on.

prj45

DonDaddyD wrote:

and there was nothing I could do even though I was already riding the brakes .

You could've been riding slower at that point, expecting this to happen.

Don't forget you didn't know what was there or what was coming, you assumed the road would be clear, bad idea.

prj45

DonDaddyD wrote:

It is not uncommon to ride your bike on a main road.

Yes, I do it all the time, sometimes at incredible speeds, but when I'm coming out from behind a stationary lorry I'll be doing about 5mph expecting to find somebody in my path by the time I get there (as well as being prepared to jump on the pavement if the lorry lurches to the right). Or if I don't feel I can filter past the lorry safely I'll wait behind it for a suitable oppurtunity to pass it.

andrewjoseph

I believe prj has a a point here. I think there are a few things to consider.

1. pedestrians have right of way on the roads (apart from motorways, other roads that are marked 'no pedestrians').
2. you should not ride at a speed such that you can't control you bike properly. i.e. brake in time for a sudden obstacle.

when riding alongside slow or stationary traffic like this it is not unreasonable to expect people to step out between traffic. We expect them to step out on the right side of the road, especially near bus stops, why is it so unexpected and baffling when they do it to the left?

As responsible riders we should expect the unexpected, we may not be able to react in time to every mishap, but that just means we didn't read the conditions properly.

DonDaddyD

prj45 wrote:

Er, you never admitted where you may have gone wrong (in what happened and your imaginary situation of what would have happened had it been dry), you spent your posts blaming somebody else.

Dondaddyd wrote:

If I made a mistake fine, this is the place to ask advice, share experiences and learn. It's not the place to be insulted because someone has a blinkered opinion, especially considering they have no prior knowledge of the road

It so happens that nothing you’ve send makes me think that I actually did make a mistake.

You have no knowledge of the road I was on. You have no concept of the speed I was travelling. You have no real idea of the manner in which I ride. What you do know is that I’ve been riding a bike for as long as I can remember, I can ride and am competent at speeds and I’ve never had a serious ‘off’ or collision with a vehicle during all my years of riding a bike (commuting or otherwise) ever in my life. So you can begin to understand how much weight your almighty judgements hold sway with me.

What you are basically saying is that a guy unexpectedly steps out in front of me and its my fault for not going slow enough to brake in time…. That is utter and absolute b*llsh*t.

Should Clever Pun have been going slow enough to brake before the Woman came across him? Should Jen J have been going slow enough to brake in time for the dog?

The overlaying question I put to you is:

Should every road user travel slow enough to stop in time for possible unexpected eventualities that they mostly cannot account for?

To me that expectation is unreasonable and dangerous in and of itself.

Fact is as prepared as you can be for most possible situations there are an infinite amount of possibilities, scenarios and situations you cannot anticipate, which is why there is a unified set of rules that all road users (pedestrians included) adhere to in order to make road safety safe for all.

On this section of the road it isn’t safe to ride on the right hand side of traffic. I generally don’t travel fast on this section of Coldharbour Lane for various reasons. In better conditions, YES, I would hae been going faster but nothing more than the ambient rolling speed of my bike, such as when you are pulling up to a red light. Considering I was already on the brakes rolling up the road, nothing short of getting off my bike and walking could have stopped me from hitting this pedestrian – he didn't peep and creep he simply stepped out of nowhere.

Yeah sure I'm more cautious on that road but I'm also sure he won't be stepping out into traffic like that again.

That’s it I have nothing more to say to you.

Edit: -

As responsible riders we should expect the unexpected, we may not be able to react in time to every mishap, but that just means we didn't read the conditions properly.

The last bit I think is utterly unreasonable to be honest. Something unexpected happened faster than we had time to react and we didn't read the condidtions properly? If that were the case it wouldn't be unexpected. If it were the case all road users wouldn't need rules of the road to follow we'd just drive/ride anticipating every possible eventuality as though it were the Matrix or something... :roll:

Say that to every person who has had an unexpected accident, who has had a door swung in their face, or a person or animal run out in front of them or who has had a car drive across them whether swing out from a minor road attempting to join a minor road or who has just decided to cut across traffic without indicating. :roll: