Buses. Safe overtaking distances

halfwheeler

Hi all, I am putting together some training material for bus drivers regarding picking up and setting down of passengers. Does anyone on the forum have any links to information regarding distance=speed=time to overtake cyclists etc. Trying to save time trawling studies and web sites.

Eat My Dust

Maybe you could suggest that if a cyclist is on front of them and they know they are going to be stopping at the next bus stop which is just ahead, not to bother overtaking. I'm fed up of buses overtaking at speed just to slam their brakes on to pull into the bus stop. It's frustrating for the cyclist and the driver.

felgen

I remember someone on another forum taking about ovetaking distances for motorcycles - even though they have incredible acceleration, they still needed consdierable distances to make a safe overtake as whent he speed increases the amount of ground covered rises. A bus is nowhere near that high peformance, and I think the main problem lies in the fact thay they just plain underestimate a cyclists speed.

I dont know of any sites or URLs but I just looked at it in terms of maths : For example if you have a cyclist 'giving it some' cycling at say at 20mph, and the bus is doing 30mph on a 30mph road this makes the speed differential 10mph. If a bus is 10 metres long, and you add 100% of the vehicle length to allow for a safe overtaking distance to pull out, pass and pull back in say, thats a total of 20 metres which the bus needs to make on the moving cyclist which at 10mph (the speed differential) would take 5(ish) seconds to complete the overtake (hope I got the maths right) - quite a long time if you imagine it. In 5 seconds at 30mph the bus would travel 62 metres while completing the overtake.

If for arguments sake, you consider that the bus has been held up the by the cyclist and has slowed to also be travelling at 20mph and the bus has to accelerate past before pulling in - this would increwase the distance significantly.

Anyway, hopefully someone who has a better grasp of the figures and some more hard data than me may come along and put together a better argument.

halfwheeler

Thanks for that felgen. The training material is to complement the new driver CPC. As a cyclist and a driver trainer i am well aware of the bad attitude from some drivers. I am trying to include technical information as back up for the driver training. Point to note:
Due to the current legislation regarding corperate liability, any company that recieves complaints about their drivers and does not take action and does not offer training to rectify the problem can be held liable for the employees actions. This means that both the driver and the transport manager are liable to prosecution. This has prompted companies to invest in driver training, and set up complaint procedures where all complaints have to be followed up.
So if you do get cut up or suffer abuse, dont respond, just report.

ride_whenever

Cheers for that halfwheeler, that's interesting to know.

I'd generally say, don't overtake cyclists 100m before an obstruction/stop. Generally they take around 5-10secs to overtake me enough to pull back in. But if i were you, to cover your back, i'd do some simple mathematics based on a cyclist travelling at 20mph (max safe speed in a built up area with stops really) and the bus going to 30mph.

Better still do some real time tests, you've got to have a testing place available

simon_e

ride_whenever wrote:

Cheers for that halfwheeler, that's interesting to know.

+1.

I'd suggest that when overtaking a moving bicycle the driver should consider it in a similar manner to a motorcycle. Apart from pilot vulnerability they must consider that the vehicle is moving. Therefore pulling back in should be much later or further up the road than for a pedestrian or static obstacle e.g. a road cone.

I'd also agree with above posters that overtaking when a bus stop or carriageway change that will slow the bus (e.g. road furniture, roundabout, traffic merging) is imminent is pointless and potentially dangerous.

While riding I find that bus drivers are too keen to pull back in after passing and, if it's one of the longer vehicles the back end of the bus gets closer and closer to me the further past it gets, which is most disconcerting. Perhaps you could provide an illustration of how the angle of the bus as it pulls back in affects the cyclist's perception (and therefore consider the need to brake and/or change line).

Perceived risk, particularly of impact from the rear, is cited by many as the reason they don't cycle. Understanding that this fear is real may help change drivers' behaviour in these circumstances. Can't you take them out on a bicycle?

Considerate driving costs nothing, and holding back behind a cyclist for 30 seconds is not going to hurt anyone.

halfwheeler

Thanks for all the feedback. I still drive PCV and LGV vehicles as well as assessing drivers and providing training, so see it from both angles. I have found that when assessing drivers they are very receptive to information regarding vulnerable road users, and when shown video clips (downloaded from you know where) of cyclists being cut up and moved in on, and informed of the draft effect on cyclists, they are very interested. Most professional drivers do take pride in their driving, unfortunately like cyclists there are good and bad. I see the introduction of compulsory training as an opportunity to educate commercial drivers of the problems cyclists face.
As a note to my previous post regarding reporting drivers. This works both ways. If a driver receives a complement from his traffic manager regarding good driving when dealing with a cyclist, he will remember the next time he approaches a cyclist.
Keep the feedback coming as it is all interesting and very useful.

fnegroni

I think you already know there is a book called Cyclecraft which will give you an idea of what the current defensive cycling attitude should be towards buses.

Cycling Dave

As a note to my previous post regarding reporting drivers. This works both ways. If a driver receives a complement from his traffic manager regarding good driving when dealing with a cyclist, he will remember the next time he approaches a cyclist.
Keep the feedback coming as it is all interesting and very useful.


This is a very good point and something we cyclists need to take a lead on when changing attitudes towards us.

Cycling Dave

That first paragraph was supposed to be a quote from half wheeler :oops:

chuckcork

You could also point out, that with the various obstructions along the side of roads, not only traffic calming but cars, a bus can easily be half way alongside a bike and by continuing in a straight line be running the cyclist straight into an obstruction.

As for the dangers of bad overtaking, having had one "duel" with an idiot driver who would just insist on overtaking me, just, to then pull in at an odd angle and out from the kerb to let off passengers and thereby COMPLETELY blocking the road to every other road users, can I suggest that the bad driving affects everyone else as a result.

As for cutting in too close, having a bus cut in on me when alongside a line of cars, and come close to crushing me into them (I hit the brakes to avoid this) was one of the scariest things to ever happne to me on a bike. Of course I passed him less than 100m later, his dangerous overtaking was absolutely pointless, a case of perceiving he was faster than me rather than actually being faster. Perhaps that point should be made every now and then, that there is a maximum speed of traffic flow, and going faster at any particular point makes no difference as a red light doesn't care?

I would have made a complaint about that but every other complaint I had made to a bus company was ignored/dismissed/passed off as being someone else's department, nice to know now they have to follow them up!