ASL Boxes

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Comments

  • JonGinge wrote:
    It is frustrating when anything other than cyclists fill up the ASL box. However, they are difficult to enforce because it is legal for a vehicle to be in them if the green light changed to red leaving them stranded. To enforce the copper would have to see the vehicle approach an already red light and then enter the ASL box. It's easy to enforce against Headhuunter's infraction coz he's gone beyond the SL at the front of the box

    you are right on the legal position, but would it be that difficult to enforce?

    if you position cameras with a view of the traffic lights, the junction and the ASL then it would be as straightforward as issuing a ticket for offences such as driving in a bus lane.

    it just isn't a priority for the police.

    actually a study was done on ASL abuse if you google around.
  • if you position cameras with a view of the traffic lights, the junction and the ASL then it would be as straightforward as issuing a ticket for offences such as driving in a bus lane.
    ... or the boxed junction cameras in London.

    Perhaps a bit of campaigning as previously suggested - surely an issue CTC should take up? Might be worth approaching them after an FOI request on the number of ASL offences dealt with and the number of cyclists crossing 'Stop' line offences (although I doubt they would separate them into subcategories of RLJing and "stopping forwards of the line", unfortunately).
  • I always feel warm and fuzzy inside when I see the police pulling over cyclists and motorists early in the morning.

    It can only mean that they've already caught that day's murderers, rapists, thieves and violent criminals.

    Can't it? :roll:
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  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Greg66 wrote:
    I always feel warm and fuzzy inside when I see the police pulling over cyclists and motorists early in the morning.

    It can only mean that they've already caught that day's murderers, rapists, thieves and violent criminals.

    Can't it? :roll:

    Well to be fair to them, there probably haven't been many murders in the City of London since Jack the Ripper, but still, you'd think they'd have something better to do...
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  • prj45
    prj45 Posts: 2,208
    This morning I was stopped by the London City Police. I pulled up at a set of traffic lights, but had passed through the green ASL box for cyclists, through the pedestrian crossing and up to the edge of the junction. I waited for the lights to go green and then continued on only to be stopped by the filth.

    Good.

    It's pretty clear you intended to jump the light if the road was clear.

    And you've admitted before you jump lights for expendiency (percieved IMO) and that's nothing to do with being safe (on another board sure but it still counts!).

    I sometimes cross the line myself to steal a march, so I'm sounding a bit hypocritical here, but I wouldn't go any further than was absolutely necesary, sounds like you were only stopped by traffic coming the other way.
  • prj45
    prj45 Posts: 2,208
    Well to be fair to them, there probably haven't been many murders in the City of London since Jack the Ripper,

    Ho ho, and they couldn't even work that one out.
  • "Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists time and space to move off when the green signal shows."

    Hang on, you MUST not cross the first line if the lights are red or amber. You can only stop in the ASL if the light goes red while you are in the box. As there is a good few seconds gap between amber and red you can surely only get caught in the ASL if the junction is blocked. Surely it can't be that hard for a PCSO or policeman to make that judgement.
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  • "Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists time and space to move off when the green signal shows."

    Hang on, you MUST not cross the first line if the lights are red or amber. You can only stop in the ASL if the light goes red while you are in the box. As there is a good few seconds gap between amber and red you can surely only get caught in the ASL if the junction is blocked. Surely it can't be that hard for a PCSO or policeman to make that judgement.
    As emphasised above, there is no imperative on encroaching into the ASL box if in heavy, slow moving traffic; although it is discouraged. I also note that it doesn't mention that you can't stop at the ASL on amber, so a cautious driver may cross the back line but choose not to risk entering the junction at the ASL. So at times of heavy traffic it would be quite possible for vehicles to enter the box on green and get caught before exiting. Whilst pointing this out, I do openly concede that in 'real life' out on the road, those are unlikely events and it seems the majority of ASL boxes are filled in circumstances other than this ... :evil:
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    prj45 wrote:
    This morning I was stopped by the London City Police. I pulled up at a set of traffic lights, but had passed through the green ASL box for cyclists, through the pedestrian crossing and up to the edge of the junction. I waited for the lights to go green and then continued on only to be stopped by the filth.

    Good.

    It's pretty clear you intended to jump the light if the road was clear.

    And you've admitted before you jump lights for expendiency (percieved IMO) and that's nothing to do with being safe (on another board sure but it still counts!).

    I sometimes cross the line myself to steal a march, so I'm sounding a bit hypocritical here, but I wouldn't go any further than was absolutely necesary, sounds like you were only stopped by traffic coming the other way.

    Yep I would've jumped the light if the road and pedestrian crossing were clear, but they weren't so I hung back. In heavy traffic I'll do what I can to distance myself from the mass of motorists. I used to hang back at lights and sit behind queues of cars, but so many times I found myself in difficulties with motorists more interested in accelerating or turning (often without indication) than checking what's around them, that I changed my strategy and it works. I find I can accelerate faster than most drivers away from lights, at least as far as the other side of the junction anyway without too much problem and this avoids any conflict/problems.

    You say you would cross the line but only go as far as possible, but if you cross the line you end up in the pedestrian crossing section which inconveniences the peds, so as far as I'm concerned, if you're going to cross the line make sure you don't inconvenience anyone.

    Of course it would be better if motorists observed ASLs....
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  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    duncedunce wrote:
    "Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists time and space to move off when the green signal shows."

    Hang on, you MUST not cross the first line if the lights are red or amber. You can only stop in the ASL if the light goes red while you are in the box. As there is a good few seconds gap between amber and red you can surely only get caught in the ASL if the junction is blocked. Surely it can't be that hard for a PCSO or policeman to make that judgement.
    As emphasised above, there is no imperative on encroaching into the ASL box if in heavy, slow moving traffic; although it is discouraged. I also note that it doesn't mention that you can't stop at the ASL on amber, so a cautious driver may cross the back line but choose not to risk entering the junction at the ASL. So at times of heavy traffic it would be quite possible for vehicles to enter the box on green and get caught before exiting. Whilst pointing this out, I do openly concede that in 'real life' out on the road, those are unlikely events and it seems the majority of ASL boxes are filled in circumstances other than this ... :evil:

    It's all very murky and the Police seem uninterested in enforcing ASLs at all. I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to do. In very busy cities like London, it's imperative that anything possible is done to protect vulnerable road users like cyclists. Something like enforcement of ASLs would be an easy step to take, the ASLs are already in place so it wouldn't take millions in new investments.
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  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Sewinman wrote:
    I do what you do all the time, normally to get in front of motorbikes who seem to insist on entering the ASL and then testing the full acceleration of their vehicles at every green light...unnerving.

    Yes, yes and yes.

    Another reason why I stop ahead of the ASL, cars do this as well, not considering that (some) bike's wobble when setting off or move away from the curb - with the car passing at full acceleration mere centimeters from my bike.
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  • fonty1978
    fonty1978 Posts: 101
    I don't encounter that many ASL's on my commute but when i do it depends how far forawrd the lead vehicle is as to where i place myself at the lights. I usually sprint away from the lights to get the prime road position before cars catch up.
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  • wgwarburton
    wgwarburton Posts: 1,863
    Hi,
    Anyone tried putting notes with the relevant section of the HWC under the wipers of offending drivers?
    It's occurred to me but my feeling is that some are likely to take umbrage, potentially violently. There are drivers who seem to feel violated if you touch their car....

    Cheers,
    W.
  • prj45
    prj45 Posts: 2,208
    There are drivers who seem to feel violated if you touch their car....

    Cheers,
    W.

    Yeah bad idea.

    I suspect you'd express the same sentiments if somebody touched your bike though!
  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    prj45 wrote:
    There are drivers who seem to feel violated if you touch their car....

    Cheers,
    W.

    Yeah bad idea.

    I suspect you'd express the same sentiments if somebody touched your bike though!

    Personally I hammer on car bodywork instead. I feel violated when someone swings a ton of metal within inches of me at speed. I feel that when they do this, they forego the right to be precious.
  • Bassjunkieuk
    Bassjunkieuk Posts: 4,232
    Very true AT, I've only lashed out at 2 vehicles and it was because the drivers had moved over or changed lanes and nearly knocked me over.

    The rest of the time the drivers are normally to far away for any retaliation to be effective, unless the driver should look in their rear view mirror and see me waving 2 fingers at them!
    Had a pillock in a plumbtec van accelerate past me only to swing back in to miss the traffic island ahead - instead of waiting a few seconds to pass when it was safe.

    As for drivers with ASL I had a few completely blocked on my way home this evening and had one driver stop with their drivers seat on the white line, rather then their bumper this morning!
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  • msw
    msw Posts: 313
    I usually make my way into the ASL if there's room, otherwise sit behind first or second car (in primary position so I don't get squeezed). I can usually see over them anyway and it's not going to save me much time.

    There is a particularly nasty one on my route home though - going towards Camden along Goods Way where it meets Canley Street (round the back of Kings Cross). There's a rougly 40-yard stretch of one way, two-lane road, one lane going right and the other going left, so as I pull away ready to turn right I've got to stay in the right hand lane - there's traffic on the left going faster than I am.

    Basically I'm going straight across this junction starting at the red circle: http://www.multimap.com/s/jfBmv8tD. There's nothing else I can do -- is there? It does tend to frustrate drivers behind me who seem to expect me to pull over to the left and let them past... especially the Porsche the other day who was still tooting and revving his big manly engine the next three times I sailed past him in traffic :-)
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  • cee
    cee Posts: 4,553
    as msw says....

    i make my way to the front of the queue. If a car is in the asl and there is no room for me in front of it (staying behind the stop line) i just sit behind the car.

    if the car is in the box and there is room in front of it, i go to the front.

    I think that the asl should be treated like hatched junctions....i.e. a car should not be stopped in there even if it is waiting to turn right (however the highway code does allow them to do this..), but then....how often do you see cars stopped waiting to turn right within those yellow hatched areas?

    There is a poor one on my route home, which has an offset junction, so the straight ahead route is almost a quick leftright..... I go straight ahead (or leftright), but it is easy to get stuck on the left hand side of a car that is turning left...road position to inform drivers of your intentions is key to staying safe on junctions such as these.
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  • I banged a black cab pretty hard this morning as he overtook with about 2 inches to spare. the driver didn't even notice but the fare gave me a terrified look out of the back window as the cab sped off.
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