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Damsgaard not so independant?

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  • DaveyL wrote:
    Please aurelio - I'm more than happy to get bogged down. PM me with the boring details if you like. How to beat Damsgaard's system?

    HGH, autologous transfusions, testosterone animal sourced with epi supplementing, IGF-!, insulin, artificial hemaglobin, plerflurocarbons, actovergin.

    New drugs which stimulate the uptake of oxygen. Don't worry, there are a myriad of techniques Ferrari will know.

    How did the riders still get benefit of blood boosting, yet after the hematocrit tests, they went from crits around 50, to the last few years of Basso and Armstrong and Landis, those riders came in at 40-43 starting crits, but no less of a performance impact. They still got the same gross oxygen cells, or o2 usage ability. It just changed from Riis' 56 era. Ofcourse, the egregious abuses like Pantani and Riis were mitigated. Not quite that level of performance. But from Armstrong's reign, the o2 uptake probably marginally changed, from when they were using EPO thru to transfusions with drug supplementation.
  • On non-analytical positives. If Damsgaard was the imprimatur for credibility, was that not destroyed with Schleck 1 and 2 in the team?

    Does any serious person buy Shleck F's denial. And does anyone buy his brother is not up to his neck in the same stuff his brother is?

    Ofcourse, Riis can't really make them the scapegoat. He accompanied F Schleck to Fuentes back in the 05/06 offseason in Madrid.

    One does not have to talk of credibility. One name tells you what CSC are really up to.

    SCHLECK
  • DaveyLDaveyL Posts: 5,167
    So which one's your favourite - Frank or Andy?
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • as Simoni said, post 2007 Giro.

    "so much for the new clean breed".
  • DaveyLDaveyL Posts: 5,167
    That's a good one coming from Gibo.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • he said that off the record btw.
  • DaveyL wrote:
    That's a good one coming from Gibo.

    It's as good coming from him, as anyone else. Not his fault he doesn't come from an English speaking country. :wink:
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • DaveyLDaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Why? Has something been lost in translation?
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • DaveyL wrote:
    Why? Has something been lost in translation?
    Yes, the bit which appears to make him more of a hypocrite, than some of the others who make "the right noises".

    Anyhow, the latest from Cyclingnews should cheer you up:-

    Doctor Bo Belhage of the Bispebjerg Hospital in Copenhagen, Denmark, said that he did not renew his contract with Rasmus Damsgaard to conduct team-internal doping controls because of too many uncertainties about the "actions, premises and intentions" of the programmes.

    Belhage recently criticised Damsgaard and questioned his ethics and independence in running the anti-doping control programmes for Teams Saxo Bank and Astana. Belhage is the chief of medicine at the Bispebjerg Hospital.

    "Anti-doping programmes need to be transparent to the public, especially when the programme originates in a public hospital," he said to Cyclingnews. "This means that closedness and uncertainties about the actions, premises and intentions of the programme are no-go's. I didn't feel these pivotal points were taken care of properly."
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Wonder if Damsgaad will move to the university of Frieburg?? To carry on with his testing. :twisted:
  • stagehopperstagehopper Posts: 1,593
    He went a bit fiurther than that:

    Belhage indicated that Damsgaard's acceptance of a bicycle from Saxo Bank in return for extra work done for them, as well as that extra work itself, were ethical violations. "There can be no money or gifts – call it whatever you like – between the policemen and the potential offenders."

    -- which makes you wonder why Belhage got involved at all int he first place. Did he think it was some kind of altruistic gesture to the people of Denmark?

    ==========

    He also clarified his comment on Armstrong (which to me read like a misreporting at the time):

    Belhage spoke of Lance Armstrong because he believes the media improperly translated and quoted his previous comments. He said that he commented early last fall and that it was in response to a question regarding the possibility of conducting a testing programme for Team Astana, including Armstrong.

    "The essence of the statement was, 'If we were to keep testing Astana including Armstrong, he would have to be tested like any other rider on Astana. No special treatment for Armstrong.'"

    Earlier reports indicated that Belhage said that he was concerned that Armstrong would not participate in the programme. Astana spokesman Philippe Maertens told Cyclingnews earlier this week that Armstrong was participating in Damsgaard’s programme.
  • DaveyLDaveyL Posts: 5,167
    DaveyL wrote:
    Why? Has something been lost in translation?
    Yes, the bit which appears to make him more of a hypocrite, than some of the others who make "the right noises".

    Anyhow, the latest from Cyclingnews should cheer you up:-

    Doctor Bo Belhage of the Bispebjerg Hospital in Copenhagen, Denmark, said that he did not renew his contract with Rasmus Damsgaard to conduct team-internal doping controls because of too many uncertainties about the "actions, premises and intentions" of the programmes.

    Belhage recently criticised Damsgaard and questioned his ethics and independence in running the anti-doping control programmes for Teams Saxo Bank and Astana. Belhage is the chief of medicine at the Bispebjerg Hospital.

    "Anti-doping programmes need to be transparent to the public, especially when the programme originates in a public hospital," he said to Cyclingnews. "This means that closedness and uncertainties about the actions, premises and intentions of the programme are no-go's. I didn't feel these pivotal points were taken care of properly."

    He's not more of a hypocrite than some of the others, but he was the one quoted in this particular thread. It's a bit rich of him, or do you disagree?

    As for Belhage, you wonder why he ever got involved in the first place as it was hardly transparent to the public from day 1. Maybe he's had some sort of epiphany.

    There has clearly been a parting of the ways between the two. Interesting how Damsgaard is now the anti-christ, and people seem to be taking everything Belhage says at face value.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • ArkibalArkibal Posts: 850
    Having Damsgaard / Catlin checking the teams makes me far more comfortable than having teams without any kind of ad-program.

    These docs have their reputation on line, I find it hard to believe that they would do any kind of cover up if they find cheaters, they will always find new jobs if the teams they look after go down.
  • LangerDanLangerDan Posts: 6,132
    Arkibal wrote:
    Having Damsgaard / Catlin checking the teams makes me far more comfortable than having teams without any kind of ad-program.

    These docs have their reputation on line, I find it hard to believe that they would do any kind of cover up if they find cheaters, they will always find new jobs if the teams they look after go down.

    Being a doctor involved in anti-doping measures is, unfortunately, no guarantee of ethical behaviour. T-Mobile's Lothar Heinrich was running the teams doping programme at the same time as he was trumpetting their anti-doping programme and launching new blood-volume tests to detect doping.
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • ArkibalArkibal Posts: 850
    LangerDan wrote:

    Being a doctor involved in anti-doping measures is, unfortunately, no guarantee of ethical behaviour. T-Mobile's Lothar Heinrich was running the teams doping programme at the same time as he was trumpetting their anti-doping programme and launching new blood-volume tests to detect doping.

    True, but the T-Mob docs were not known ad-docs. Catlin and Damsgaard hunt cheats for a living, both have been doing that for years. You can't really compare them to T-mobs old docs can you?
  • LangerDanLangerDan Posts: 6,132
    Arkibal wrote:
    LangerDan wrote:

    Being a doctor involved in anti-doping measures is, unfortunately, no guarantee of ethical behaviour. T-Mobile's Lothar Heinrich was running the teams doping programme at the same time as he was trumpetting their anti-doping programme and launching new blood-volume tests to detect doping.

    True, but the T-Mob docs were not known ad-docs. Catlin and Damsgaard hunt cheats for a living, both have been doing that for years. You can't really compare them to T-mobs old docs can you?

    Why not ?- Heinrich developed and published techniques which, he said, would help target dopers. I think ProCycling even carried an interview with Heinrich on account of these views. Plus he had his University of Freiburg connection to given him a air of independance. Given where we were a few years ago, the T-Mobile approach appeared at the time to be very open, independant and science-based - a far cry from the good old days of having riders medically "looked after" by vets and soigneurs.

    Was he a Catlin or Damsgaard? No but he appeared closer to their stance than that of, say, Dr. Mabuse
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • anyone see last years graph.

    In January, or December 06, one riders hematocrit shot up to 49.

    It was noted with an asterisk. The ^ then said "possible high natural hematocrit from young rider".

    Ok, it also could have said "potential blood deposit for autologous transfusion doping from Andy Schleck or Chris Sorensen".

    You name me the other young riders. It should be pretty simple to work out their natural "at rest" hematocrit. Ofcourse, I am not expert, though I realise there are myriad of reasons why the crit will be up and down, in the off-season, ceteris paribus.

    Vaughters hit 50 in the off-season, no training. It is possible to be over 50, or 49, when clean. When the body is out of heavy training. But it also could be transfusion withdrawal.

    As others quoted, if Basso was studied, and promoted as the perfect example of a clean athlete, and all the time he was doing autologous transfusions, then how the heck is Damsgaard going to ping someone.
  • Arkibal wrote:
    LangerDan wrote:
    Being a doctor involved in anti-doping measures is, unfortunately, no guarantee of ethical behaviour. T-Mobile's Lothar Heinrich was running the teams doping programme at the same time as he was trumpetting their anti-doping programme and launching new blood-volume tests to detect doping.
    True, but the T-Mob docs were not known ad-docs. Catlin and Damsgaard hunt cheats for a living, both have been doing that for years. You can't really compare them to T-mobs old docs can you?
    Next you will be arguing that all police officers are above suspicion of criminal activity or collusion with criminals because their job is to catch criminals!

    Again, just look at Jesus Manzano's revelations about the way the haematologist and owner of the UCI's blood testing laboratory in Spain, Walter Viru, used to tip off his friend Dr. Del Moral, USP / Discovery's team doctor, when the UCI's blood testing ‘vampires’ were about to pay the team a visit. Although practically every English language cycling new source cheerfully printed everything else Manzano said, whilst ignoring this part of Manzano's interview, I see no reason why this particular point should be given any less credibility than Manzano's other revelations.

    Anyhow here is a link to the original interview with Manzano.

    http://www.multriman.com/news/riendechange.pdf
  • ArkibalArkibal Posts: 850
    Aurelio, do a little research on Catlin and Damsgaard.

    I'm not arguing anything, you seem to be the one doing all the arguments.
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