Floyd's ban finishes next week

iainf72

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/n ... id=3852547

The Tour of California will be just like the old days.

I hope FloydFan returns to the forum too!

afx237vi

Can they even enter the ToC? I thought .HC races were restricted to Pro Tour and Pro Conti teams only. Ouch only have a Continental license.

[Edit]

OK, I just checked and I was wrong. Continental teams can enter HC races only if they're registered in the same country as the race.

6288

One of the few i actually beleive in ,,, testosterone doesn't create that performance and is easily detectable ... good luck to him ...

rapid_uphill

i only read this far:
"Floyd Landis is coming back to cycling, and says his sport will be better for it"

before i fell about laughing

colint

6288 wrote:

One of the few i actually beleive in ,,, testosterone doesn't create that performance and is easily detectable ... good luck to him ...

testosterone doesn't, but could something else he'd taked led to the high level ? I don't know the anser, just asking

DaveyL

6288 wrote:

One of the few i actually beleive in ,,, testosterone doesn't create that performance and is easily detectable ... good luck to him ...

Testosterone doesn't create that kind of performance (the one to Morzine) - you're right. Otherwise we'd be seeing something like it every other day or racing. As one anti-doping expert put it, it's the cornerstone of a doping programme, the bare minimum you would do if you were doping.

Floyd's ride was amazing that day (and helped it has to be said by tactical ineptitude of other teams as well) but he had synthetic tesosterone in his system that day and on about 5 other days of the Tour. He didn't necessarily use it for that great performance, but like a lot of other riders, (and many others have been done for testosterone), I guess he was using it routinely. This was only flagged up because of his one sample which set off the T/E alarm (they then went back and looked at the others via isotope ratio mass spec) If his T/E ratio had been within the allowed limits, he'd never have been caught.

DaveyL

colint wrote:

6288 wrote:

One of the few i actually beleive in ,,, testosterone doesn't create that performance and is easily detectable ... good luck to him ...

testosterone doesn't, but could something else he'd taked led to the high level ? I don't know the anser, just asking

It wasn't a high level of testosterone. It was a high *ratio* of testosterone to epitestosterone, and he was subsequently found to have synthetic testosterone in his system (as carried out by isotope ratio mass spec).

blazing_saddles

6288 wrote:

One of the few i actually beleive in ,,, testosterone doesn't create that performance and is easily detectable ... good luck to him ...

Not to worry. You will have this man....

O'Neill out until 2010
Suspension reinstated to two years

The Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority (ASADA) announced Wednesday that the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) Appeals Board in Switzerland overturned the original decision to lessen the suspension of Australian cyclist Nathan O'Neill from 24 months to 15 months, returning the ban to the maximum of two years and keeping O'Neill out of racing until June of 2010. This change is a result of an appeal filed by ASADA along with the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) and the UCI to push for the maximum ban.

....doing the tv commentary upon this man......




6288: Just because he tested positive for synthethic testosterone, doesn't mean it was the only illegal substance he was juiced on.

CERA was around in 2006, but we only found out about it at this year's Tour.
Look at Rocket Ricco and Spaceman Sella. Superhuman one day, caught by a surprise new test, the next.

Still, the old conspiracy theories will make a change from the old Lance stories.

aurelio_-_banned

6288 wrote:

One of the few i actually beleive in ,,, testosterone doesn't create that performance and is easily detectable ... good luck to him ...

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Still, the old conspiracy theories will make a change from the old Lance stories.

As I said earlier.

... now that Fraud Landis is coming back doubtless his own little band of disciples will be providing those with a more rational turn of mind with a whole new set of anti-French conspiracy theories, historical revisionism and scientifically illiterate nonsense to criticise!

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... t=12603879

leguape

Blazing, this is where I get a bit stuck:

We all trust Allen Lim, don't we? After all this guy is fundamental to the whole Slipstream "clean" PR machine. He says that according to his numbers, it was physiologically possible within the normal bounds of power outputs and all that for Floyd to do it:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 322625.ece

(It's incidentally why I sometimes have a problem with Kimmage's take on things - he says "oh I knew he was doped" apparently ignoring everything else that made that result.)

I suppose Lim's working relationship with Floyd could have begun after Landis had got his programme running but surely there must have been a window in that period where he was "off" and it would have stuck out like a sore thumb?

I don't get how Lim never clocked it given his knowledge of physiology. And if he didn't spot Floyd, then what else is the guy missing? There's something here which reminds me of Wakefield and MMR about the discrepancy.

DaveyL

Because the extraordinary performance and the testosterone use need not be linked...

aurelio_-_banned

DaveyL wrote:

Because the extraordinary performance and the testosterone use need not be linked...

Then again, it appears that the performance of Fraud Landis was not actually that extraordinary. Rather, the rest of the field were cooked after 3 weeks of hard racing and were going rather slowly as a result. (I was on the Joux-Plan that day and I don't think that I have ever seen a lead group in the Tour ever look so wasted).

In comparison, Landis was able to perform as though he was in the first week and not the last. This may well be linked to his micro-dosing with testosterone throughout the Tour, a practice which is intended to counter the natural depletion of testosterone in a long stage race, so aiding recovery.

That said he was almost certainly using autologous blood doping and so on as well, but as this was undetectable he was hardly going to be caught with regards this particular aspect of his 'preparation'.

DaveyL

Are you suggesting he might have been the only one micro-dosing with testosterone during that Tour?

Don Catlin says testosterone is the "cornerstone" of any doping programme. If any rider is doping, they are likely to be on at least testosteorne plus something else (see Sinkewitz, Moreni et al). If testosterone really has such a dramatic effect, why aren't we seeing these sorts of ride every other day?

Landis's ride, for a number of reasons, was spectacular. He was also taking testosterone, There need not be a massive cause and effect between the two.

With regard to your alleging his use of autologous transfusions, what evidence is there? I'm sure Iain has mentioned Ashenden saying Landis's blood values looked OK during the Tour (i.e. didn't show signs of manipulation) but I'm sure Iain can jump in an clarify (if he has any desire to contribute to this tedious topic).

iainf72

DaveyL wrote:

With regard to your alleging his use of autologous transfusions, what evidence is there? I'm sure Iain has mentioned Ashenden saying Landis's blood values looked OK during the Tour (i.e. didn't show signs of manipulation) but I'm sure Iain can jump in an clarify (if he has any desire to contribute to this tedious topic).

I don't think Ashenden has commented directly but if you use the standards he used to evaluate VDV and Millar's blood tests from last year as normal, Floyds were normal as well.

That said, his HCT rose during the Tour...

Kléber

Armstrong is now saying "Floyd might have been found guilty but at the end of the trial, if you ask people, over 50% thought he was innocent". Obviously 66% of the CAS panel found him guilty.

aurelio_-_banned

iainf72 wrote:

... his HCT rose during the Tour...

Which is exactly the opposite of what one would expect in a rider racing day after day in something as arduous as the Tour...

iainf72

aurelio wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

... his HCT rose during the Tour...

Which is exactly the opposite of what one would expect in a rider racing day after day in something as arduous as the Tour...

But it's such a blunt instrument you can't trust it to mean anything. But broadly it shouldn't go up.

blazing_saddles

leguape wrote:

Blazing, this is where I get a bit stuck:
We all trust Allen Lim, don't we? After all this guy is fundamental to the whole Slipstream "clean" PR machine.

It's a bit of a poser, I have to admit. I want to believe in the SS clean PR machine, but the FLandis positive, in respect of Lim, tends to make it look a bit like a house of cards in a gale.
I remember reading some of his stuff, at the time and doing a fair bit of chin rubbing. (no pun, honest! )

Was Floyd subject to the "bonk", pure and simple, as Lim states?
Not according to what I saw on stage 16. I saw him sweating like a pig, as early as the Lauteret. His engine was overheating from the off.
The guy de-hydrated, much like Lance in 2003; only Lance took several days to recover his form.
It also explains why he downed such a huge quantity of water, keeping the engine cooled on stage 17.
Landis confesses as much, after the stage:-
"The team did a good job in the beginning; I suffered from the beginning but I tried to hide it... In the end, I couldn't go. I don't think it was a problem with not eating enough."

Having said that, I'm not sure what all of the above tells us about Lim!
Is omission a lie or just a being selective with the truth?

After all said and done, syntheic testosterone was found in his system. The second, specific test is pretty unrefutable.
In for a penny, in for a pound, as the old saying goes.

redddraggon

Last year, did the ToC not allow RR's convicted doper to race? Surely they'll do the same to Floyd?

iainf72

redddraggon wrote:

Last year, did the ToC not allow RR's convicted doper to race? Surely they'll do the same to Floyd?

No, they didn't allow people who may have been under investigation (but weren't) to race.

redddraggon

iainf72 wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Last year, did the ToC not allow RR's convicted doper to race? Surely they'll do the same to Floyd?

No, they didn't allow people who may have been under investigation (but weren't) to race.

You've lost me :?

Was Tyler still under investigation? He'd already served his ban by then hadn't he?

iainf72

redddraggon wrote:

You've lost me :?

Was Tyler still under investigation? He'd already served his ban by then hadn't he?

He had but there were threats to place the Puerto riders under investigation.

DaveyL

Blazing Saddles wrote:

leguape wrote:

Blazing, this is where I get a bit stuck:
We all trust Allen Lim, don't we? After all this guy is fundamental to the whole Slipstream "clean" PR machine.

It's a bit of a poser, I have to admit. I want to believe in the SS clean PR machine, but the FLandis positive, in respect of Lim, tends to make it look a bit like a house of cards in a gale.
I remember reading some of his stuff, at the time and doing a fair bit of chin rubbing. (no pun, honest! )

Was Floyd subject to the "bonk", pure and simple, as Lim states?
Not according to what I saw on stage 16. I saw him sweating like a pig, as early as the Lauteret. His engine was overheating from the off.
The guy de-hydrated, much like Lance in 2003; only Lance took several days to recover his form.
It also explains why he downed such a huge quantity of water, keeping the engine cooled on stage 17.
Landis confesses as much, after the stage:-
"The team did a good job in the beginning; I suffered from the beginning but I tried to hide it... In the end, I couldn't go. I don't think it was a problem with not eating enough."

Having said that, I'm not sure what all of the above tells us about Lim!
Is omission a lie or just a being selective with the truth?

After all said and done, syntheic testosterone was found in his system. The second, specific test is pretty unrefutable.
In for a penny, in for a pound, as the old saying goes.

I guess it could have been a combination of being both. In my limited experience of being dehydrated on the bike, I don't want to eat. As to Lim's involvement, I think he was Landis's personal coach and didn't coach the other Phonak guys. Let's not forget how many positives Phonak had - their doctors could easily have kept Lim out of the inner circle.

Anyway I think Kimmage mentions this in his Lim interview. It would be nice though for Lim to come out and say how much access he within Phonak, and what he knew, in '06.

Martin Van Nostrand

Sigh. same old crap dredged up again.

The most parsimonious explanation of Landis testosterone ratio is that he bonked badly the day before, reached into the fridge for a bag of fresh blood, which he had stored previously, and likely was dosing on testosterone at that time, during the spring races, where all the TDF contenders disappear. This was very common in 06 -see OP.

He has repeatedly lied to his fans, to the sport, and defrauded hundreds off his defense fund.

The truth is, given any rider from nation x, regardless of evidence and facts, will be defended by fanboys from nation x.

Landis is not the story. The story is how many ex-Us postal riders have been outright caught.

iainf72

Martin Van Nostrand wrote:

The most parsimonious explanation of Landis testosterone ratio is that he bonked badly the day before, reached into the fridge for a bag of fresh blood, which he had stored previously, and likely was dosing on testosterone at that time, during the spring races, where all the TDF contenders disappear. This was very common in 06 -see OP.

I think that story has been discounted by doping experts. He may have had a transfusion but the testosterone would've come from a patch or something he used the night before in the Tour.

DaveyL

Have you read the thread? One post out of 22 before yours defending him.

The point several others are trying to make is - yes he cheated (took synthetic testosterone), but no it wasn't the main cause of his astonishing Morzine ride. That's not really defending him, is it?

As for the contaminated transfusion theory - I've never seen any evidence of this other than it being bandied around on internet forums.

In fact, the simplest explanation is that he was taking synthetic testosterone directly.

iainf72

DaveyL wrote:

In fact, the simplest explanation is that he was taking synthetic testosterone directly.

And if he hadn't have a skewed T:E ratio the lab would've never run the IRMS, he'd never have tested positive, iShares would've taken over from Phonak etc etc.

And considering the test was performed incorrectly for the ratio it's a blinding bit of luck they managed to get him.

Funny old world.