Carbon or Titanium

wyattlad

I'm sure this has been done to death, but here goes anyway. I'm considering buying a new bike in the £1,500 bracket. I've got a short list of bikes so this isn't a what bike shall I buy question. I really don't know if I should go carbon or titanium. I'm not a racer, intended use is for fast mid to long runs (50 - 100 miles) and the occasiional sportive. Would appeciate your thoughts on the option of carbon or titanium.

weapons

Can you even get a titanium bike for £1,500?

toontra

I've had a Van Nicholas Yukon (titanium) for over a year and used it for several long trips, including a 6-day LEJoG - http://6-daylejog.blogspot.com/ and many other 100-200 mile per day jaunts. I've found it to be incredibly comfortable with just the right angles to prevent body strain, and the ti does a great job of absorbing road rumble, especially on poor surfaces.

So it's not only the material to look out for, but also the frame size, shape and angles. Give the VN a look.

toontra

weapons wrote:

Can you even get a titanium bike for £1,500?

Mine came in at around £1500 last Christmas time. Not sure if the price has gone up. (I got it from Fat Birds BTW)

Slow Downcp

weapons wrote:

Can you even get a titanium bike for £1,500?

You should be able to, but it would proabably be entry level with lower end GS and wheels - I built an Enigma Etape with Centaur and Kysrium Elites for around £2k, so a VN Euro with Veloce/105 and Aksiums or similar should come below £2k.

It's more comfortable than my carbon bike (Kuota), but not as quick (still not sluggish though) - although this may partly be due to the more relaxed geometry of the Etape.

Slow Downcp

This is nice if it's the right size:

http://www.enigmabikes.com/enigma-bikes ... od_70.html

term1te

I have a Van Nicholas Euros, and am very pleased with it. Upgrade the wheels if you can afford it. I switched the R550s that came with it for some Open Pros on DA I had lying about, and there was a significant improvement. Get the fit right though, having stumpy legs I found the sizing service on the VN website actually predicted a bike that was to small for the rest of me. After a long measuring session at the shop I got the next size up and it fits like a glove. Try before you buy, if you can.

Having said that, there is a lot of nice carbon out there at the moment....

padonbike

I had a Bianchi Titanium and now have a Giant TCR Carbon. Apart from the 400g+ that the carbon is lighter, the carbon is infinitely more responsive, more stable in cross winds and more comfortable. Titanium is a dated technology, sure it was cool with Pros in the mid-late 90s but it's died a death now.
No Ti afficionado can argue with this fact.
The only true useful application for Ti in the bike world (apart from components, where it obviously has weight advantages over steel) is the XC hardtail MTB. You can build a TI hardtail that is tougher than carbon or aluminium, but lighter and more responsive than steel. For any other applications, stay well clear of Ti.

Slow Downcp

padonbike wrote:

The only true useful application for Ti in the bike world (apart from components, where it obviously has weight advantages over steel) is the XC hardtail MTB. You can build a TI hardtail that is tougher than carbon or aluminium, but lighter and more responsive than steel. For any other applications, stay well clear of Ti.

I disagree (someone had to :twisted: ).

I bought my Enigma for winter use as it takes mudguards and is going to withstand bumps better than carbon if I fall, plus doesn't corrode or oxidise like Alu or Steel.

cougie

If you do buy a Ti bike - then you'll probably have it for years. Would be a good choice if you intend flying a lot - it'll take the knocks well.

That said - you really need to test ride the bike to see what you make of it. Not everyone likes the ride of Ti.

With carbon - it can be built into a very comfortable ride - or ultrastiff for the best race performance. So again - you need a ride.

Brixtonfixed

Here's an off-the-top-of the head list of the two options' attributes, based on what I know. I own steel, alu and Ti road bikes (latter an Enigma Esprit) and have ridden carbon.

Titanium
- - - - - - -
Extremely strong and durable - as cougie says it takes the knocks. In a high speed crash, my bike was fine, the other guy's carbon frame was cracked. It's comfortable too, markedly more so than ally or steel IMO. I race my Enigma too and at my humble level (cat 4 veteran) I don't think anything stiffer or fancier would make much difference.

Carbon
- - - - - -
Wot cougie said. Can be as comfortable if not more so than Ti. Can also be much stiffer than Ti if you have a need for speed. Can be lighter too, which is a factor if your rides are hilly. However if the frame breaks, it's probably broken forever. Over a long time, carbon frames are probably not as durable as Ti, but I'm not a materials specialist so treat this as the sweeping statement that it is. Also cheaper, with the entry level just under a grand vs. 1500+for Ti (Enigma's cheapest Ti road bike is 1800).

Sounds to me like Ti would do the job - it would cost you more to buy but possibly last longer. Carbon would do the job too, be cheaper, a bit lighter but potentially not as tough.

softlad

irrespective of the ride qualities - carbon will never have as much 'class' as titanium...

I'm also interested to know how Ti is 'less stable in cross winds'...?? I don't understand that at all - I thought the biggest influencing factor here was the wheels, not the frame...

cougie

Yeah - no idea about stability in cross winds - but my carbon TCR took a liking for the far right hand side of the road in a descent off the Moors on one of its first outings ! I put that down to the wind and maybe a bit of speed wobble from the compact frame.

One snag of getting Ti - what reason do you have to change bike - its pretty indestructible.

To be fair though - Carbon can be tough in normal use - but there is the tale of the guy who got his Colnago C40 in the garden for a picture- balanced it up against the rockery - went to take a pic - only for a gust of wind to blow it over into the rocks - and a rock smashes a hole in a tube....

So gardens and bikes dont mix.

MrChuck

padonbike wrote:

Titanium is a dated technology, sure it was cool with Pros in the mid-late 90s but it's died a death now.
No Ti afficionado can argue with this fact.
The only true useful application for Ti in the bike world (apart from components, where it obviously has weight advantages over steel) is the XC hardtail MTB. You can build a TI hardtail that is tougher than carbon or aluminium, but lighter and more responsive than steel. For any other applications, stay well clear of Ti.

I can't decide whether you're being serious here. It sounds like you are, but you can't be!

greg roche

The Doc's June blog here offers a reasonably balanced view (for someone who designs in Ti for us):

http://www.sabbathbicycles.co.uk/ssblog.php

alfablue

greg roche wrote:

The Doc's June blog here offers a reasonably balanced view (for someone who designs in Ti for us):

http://www.sabbathbicycles.co.uk/ssblog.php

That is a very well argued piece, convinced me. I have a carbon, titanium and a steel bike, they all ride really well, all are comfy, the carbon one is fast and climbs the best, but the carbon one won't be flying on Easyjet with me!

neeb

This debate has indeed been had many times before... Of course it depends on the individual bike when it comes to what it will ride like; both Ti and carbon can be stiff or flexy, comfortable or uncomfortable, responsive or unresponsive. Maybe the only constants for the materials are that Ti is usually stronger and carbon is usually slightly lighter (although not by much, the difference is much less than between carbon and steel and some Ti frames are lighter than many carbon frames). We all know that you can make frames with all sorts of different properties using carbon, but I think the flexibility of Ti in terms of what you can do with it is often underestimated. Because you can make Ti tubes very thin you can make light frames with all sorts of innovative tube profiles - take a look at the Litespeed Archon for example. This means you can use tube shapes to control stiffness and flexibility in various directions much more than with steel (although less than with carbon obviously). The old fashioned Ti noodle frame with really narrow round tubes may be an outdated technology, but Ti itself seems to be very much an ongoing technology whose full potential may not have been reached yet.

Don't underestimate the value of the strength thing. I had to invest in a bike bag or box recently with the intention of taking my bike on planes quite a lot. Now, you can get these really solid hardcase boxes that would keep a carbon frame safe from luggage handlers, but they all weigh about 12-15kg... I eventually got a Polaris bikepod, which is made of a semi-rigid material and only weights 6kg (so including my 16lb TI bike will be only a tad over 13kg). It protects completely from abrasions and anything getting snagged or knocked, but it won't resist serious compression. I would have no fears transporting a Ti frame in it (with a brace between the rear dropouts) but carbon would be a different matter...

Monty Dog

If you're contemplating taking your bike on a plane, I'd look at titanium for sure - unless you're into out and out racing when things like stiffness and directness might make a marginal difference. I have frames made in titanium, ti/carbon, carbon and steel and my choice is ti/carbon. Whilst the pro-level carbon is great for short races, it is in fact too stiff for my weight - it skips about too much on rough roads and transmits every vibration through the fat tubes. Just because you can make incredibly stiff and light carbon frames, doesn't actually make them the best for all types of riding.

Wappygixer

Decathlon are doing the Comp 3 with is Titanium with carbon fork and rear end and complete with Ultegra SL group for £1450 or their abouts.
If I hadn't just built a new bike I'd snap one up, got a great review on here

neeb

my choice is ti/carbon

Just as a matter of interest, is that Ti with carbon rear triangle (e.g. Enigma Eulogy) or carbon tubes with Ti lugs (like Independent Fab.)?

giant_man

I don't think i could trust any airline with any carbon bike of mine, particularly an uber expensive one, no matter how good the case. So a lightweight steel or ti (with couplers) would be my choice for travelling ...

doyler78

I have both carbon and ti and I notice very little difference in either bike. The carbon is a ligther frame but has heavier components which means both bikes are almost identical weight wise. I too find that climbing just seems a little a easier on the carbon but it's not huge - climbing is just hard full stop. I love both. The carbon has a much more agreesive geometry so it for blast arounds on a nice day however the ti gets the fast bulk of my riding at this time of year as it will take anything that the winter has to throw at it.With the carbon I constantly worry about chipping the paint - it just a bike which makes me panic much more over even though it will end up about £1000 cheaper than the ti.