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Signalling and road position

spasypaddyspasypaddy Posts: 5,179
edited January 2009 in Commuting chat
Right this evening i was riding home from work on what is a two lane road but on the side has a full lane just for parking, wide enough for a whole car with out encroaching on the actual driving space so when there are no cars parked it is essentially a 4 lane road. The road is surprisingly badly lit (if at all) considering its central london.

Now i'm quite an aggressive rider and wouldn't dream of ever riding in the parking lane, due to the fact that if there is a parked car you would have to pull out into the main road and could possibly lose speed due to having to slow down to allow cars that are already there go past. Now i am considerate enough to ride close to the parked lane but not in it but not as far out as when i ride down a normal road. Where would you ride?

We following still?

Well some woman who was brighter than the sun and it was the middle of the night (5.20pm) is riding right by the kerb, actually in the gutter along the road above and just signals to turn right. I can clearly see what shes going to do but the daft bint doesn't look she just pulls out assuming no-one was coming. I had to slow down but i thought i'll protect her a bit so i shouted "go on love" she still hasn't looked yet and she's technically crossed two lanes of traffic. I ride behind her for a minute and then when it clears up i pull alongside her and tell her to look next time she decides to pull out she completely blanks me. I would of checked two or three times.

So my other question... How many times do you look behind you before you make a manoeuvre like the one described above?

Posts

  • blackworxblackworx Posts: 123
    1: Exactly where you do
    2: Enough to be sure. In the case of a 4 lane road that's probably 2 or 3 times depending on how fast I'm going.

    See that kind of carry on around here all the time but never on a 4 lane road. I'd call that a death wish.
    Trek XO1
    FCN4
  • I see cyclists with that "Anything behind me does not exist" style all the time in London. I just keep a safe distance to stop them being a danger to me as well...
  • Mirror; Signal; Life Saver; Maneuver.

    Defensive riding everytime.

    Your life your resposibility.

    I actually drop my arm by my side before my first glance over my shoulder - my hands have reflective blobs on them. I then look over my shoulder, then signal. I look over my shoulder before making any attempt to change my position in the road. If it safe I make my maneuver.

    In essence I sgree with you on everything.

    years as a motorcyclist, having been taught to ride by the police and advanced riding by a police instructor, I apply everything (within reason) to my bike without an engine.
  • The standard of cycling in Central London is pretty awful really, to be honest I am surprised there aren't more incidents. No wonder motorists hate us.
    <a>road</a>
  • FeltupFeltup Posts: 1,340
    Shoulder check well in advance of when I would like to move out to my right turn position. This gives me an idea of what is coming up and how fast so I can calculate when I am going to do my proper check and potentially make my move.

    Shoulder check at the calculated time and if I was correct on the first check move out. Some roads I will stake my claim early so that I know the cars coming up are given enough time to adjust to my speed, this might mean they are slowed longer than they would like but tough! Assertive but defensive!
    Short hairy legged roadie FCN 4 or 5 in my baggies.

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  • soy_saucesoy_sauce Posts: 987
    I always check about 3-4 times before i move in the the primary position (middle of the lane) then when closer to the turn, i move more toward the right side of the lane as a signal of im gonna turn right.

    i never use arm signals when turning as i haven't been cycling for long, I can only cycle with both arms on the bar (at the moment), it would be more dangerous for me and other road users if i attempt to do so.


    was she wearing a helmet?
    "It is not impossible, its just improbable"

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  • always_tyredalways_tyred Posts: 4,965
    Apart from not shoulder checking, and being too far to the left in the first place (which isn't strictly a crime), was she doing anything wrong?

    One thing - she hadn't crossed 2 lanes of traffic if I understand correctly. She was in the first lane already. So what if her vehicle is narrow?

    If I'm trying to turn right, across any number of lanes, I signal (and check) and give traffic behind me a reasonable amount of time to decide not to overtake a vehicle signalling right (they wouldn't do it to a car, so why to a bicycle?). At some point though, one has to actually MOVE to the right, or traffic will just continue to flow past.

    So my question is, how long was she signalling? If it was for a few seconds, would it have been reasonable to overtake her and make her miss her turn anyway? You say you knew what she was going to do.

    Just a thought.
  • spen666spen666 Posts: 17,709
    edited January 2009
    spasypaddy wrote:
    Right this evening i was riding home from work on what is a two lane road but on the side has a full lane just for parking, wide enough for a whole car with out encroaching on the actual driving space so when there are no cars parked it is essentially a 4 lane road. The road is surprisingly badly lit (if at all) considering its central london.

    Now i'm quite an aggressive rider and wouldn't dream of ever riding in the parking lane, due to the fact that if there is a parked car you would have to pull out into the main road and could possibly lose speed due to having to slow down to allow cars that are already there go past. Now i am considerate enough to ride close to the parked lane but not in it but not as far out as when i ride down a normal road. Where would you ride?

    We following still?

    Well some woman who was brighter than the sun and it was the middle of the night (5.20pm) is riding right by the kerb, actually in the gutter along the road above and just signals to turn right. I can clearly see what shes going to do but the daft bint doesn't look she just pulls out assuming no-one was coming. I had to slow down but i thought i'll protect her a bit so i shouted "go on love" she still hasn't looked yet and she's technically crossed two lanes of traffic. I ride behind her for a minute and then when it clears up i pull alongside her and tell her to look next time she decides to pull out she completely blanks me. I would of checked two or three times.

    So my other question... How many times do you look behind you before you make a manoeuvre like the one described above?


    by those two comments I have highlighted, if you mean what they say, you have condemned yourself as at the least aggressive ( do you mean assertive- the two are not the same) and lacking in consideration for other road users in not even considering doing something that may assist.


    That doesn't take away the fact she was a muppet and you acted to assist her like a gentleman and never even got a phone number as thanks
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  • spasypaddyspasypaddy Posts: 5,179
    AT - She in theory crossed two lanes of traffic moving in the same direction as her without looking. Her signalling was great i can't fault her signalling it gave me enough time to slow down and protect her. But if shes willing to do it on this road i dread to think what she does on other roads.

    I could easily have overtaken her but i was turning right there as well but i was riding in the middle of the lane so no-one could over take me. I still checked before moving further into the middle of the road to cross the other lane.

    Technically she didn't do anything wrong but she changed lanes very dangerously and didn't look thats the problem. I was looking out for her that is all. And thought it worth highlighting as well to others on here to get some feedback
  • spen666spen666 Posts: 17,709
    spasypaddy wrote:
    AT - She in theory crossed two lanes of traffic moving in the same direction as her without looking. Her signalling was great i can't fault her signalling it gave me enough time to slow down and protect her. But if shes willing to do it on this road i dread to think what she does on other roads.

    I could easily have overtaken her but i was turning right there as well but i was riding in the middle of the lane so no-one could over take me. I still checked before moving further into the middle of the road to cross the other lane.

    Technically she didn't do anything wrong but she changed lanes very dangerously and didn't look thats the problem. I was looking out for her that is all. And thought it worth highlighting as well to others on here to get some feedback

    isn't that her doing something wrong?

    riding dangerously is a specific criminal offence
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  • spen666spen666 Posts: 17,709
    spasypaddy wrote:
    sorry Spen66 i meant assertive

    LOL- I had visions of you riding along punching other road users and threatening pedestrians if they so much as dared think of stepping out in front of you
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  • spasypaddyspasypaddy Posts: 5,179
    spen666 wrote:
    spasypaddy wrote:
    sorry Spen66 i meant assertive

    LOL- I had visions of you riding along punching other road users and threatening pedestrians if they so much as dared think of stepping out in front of you
    funnily enough i do have a really bad habit of taking both hands off my bars and sarcastically applauding bad driving...

    Well i didn't know it was a criminal offence to be a dangerous cyclist i shall keep that one in my locker for next time i see her
  • always_tyredalways_tyred Posts: 4,965
    I was just asking.

    So did she change lanes suddenly?

    Look, one of my points was that, even though there is often room for cars to pass you within a lane, they are overtaking. As such, if you move from the left of a lane to the right of a lane, you are not changing lanes any more than a car is doing when making the same manoeuver. Passing a cyclist is no different, in principle, to a car overtaking another car. In either instance it is dangerous and stupid to overtake a vehicle signalling right from ahead of you in the same lane.

    As such, if she gave you plenty of warning, other than aparrently not looking back for her own safety, I don't know what your problem with her is. If you had overtaken her (irrespective of your onward travel plans) you would have been in the wrong. If you were in another lane and had plenty of time to ease off and allow her to turn, again at the very least I would regard not letting her do so to be inconsiderate. In actual fact, you did neither of these things and corteously let her in front of you.

    Do you KNOW that she didn't see you? Are you SURE she didn't look? You suggest she had adequate clothing and lighting. Perhaps she also had a bar mirror? You surmise that she changed lanes dangerously because you didn't see her shoulder check, but I'm not sure, from your description, that there is anything about her trajectory as such that was dangerous.

    Personally, if the only upcoming traffic was another cyclist, I'd probably assume that they wouldn't run me over if I indicated clearly and cycled predictably.

    To me, it seems entirely possible that she wasn't a silly bint.
  • spasypaddyspasypaddy Posts: 5,179
    she definitely didnt check. DEFINITELY.

    she also DEFINITELY did not have a bar mirror.

    i dont normally comment on other peoples riding but this was dangerous. She started from a different lane to mine and then went completely across my lane. My lights are pretty damn bright and as she was the only other thing on the road in front of me as i drew near her i concentrated on what she was going to do.

    She may argue that she couldn't hear a car but wizzgos dont make any noise but are still cars travelling much faster than she was.
  • Simonb256Simonb256 Posts: 880
    Doing 'nothing wrong' also does not change the fact that a lot fo the vehicle on the road will not always respect that.

    Sure we (the forum) were not there and therefore can not pass judgement, however you cant really live in trust that everyone obeys the rules and behaves as they should.
    "War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength." George Orwell - 1984
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