Screw the LBS - Praise Traders with Quality Components

Spitchips - BANNED

Why support the LBS when they may not stock the best quality components for the bike. Its a bit like supporting your local local TV shop but they only sell el cheapo TVs and not good branded ones like Samusng, Sony or Panasonic. Or its abit like supporting your local music shop but they dont actually stock your choice of music - although online you can find 6 dedicated sites revolving around your likes (elecronic music).My local music shop just stocks weird old vinyl and weird music I would not listen too. Online shops spoil you for choice and they will have it in stock, well one might anyway.


LBS Vs Online Shops
My local LBs does not sell a good range of components, actually very limited range - about 2-3 different front chain sets, online has dozens and dozens. I bet the range of products and prices online urinate all over your LBS too.

I am all for supporting the company which dishes out the best made components, ie Dura Ace, Shimano XT, Deore etc, Time Pedals and Orange bikes. So if Avid do top of the range excellent brakes then I am going to buy from the shop - online or not who stocks them. If I want or need a specific component or accessoery like Topeak V16 cycle computer then I am going to buy from the shop which stocks them - probably online.

Quality Trumps LBS
I am not going to sacrifice on quality or choice in favour of kissing the chocolate starfish of my LBS! If the LBS was too open up a massive warehouse shop the size of halfords and offer amazing range of components and accessories and did online trading too then I maybe, just maybe converted BUT only if they stocked quality goods, at a good price.

Summary
Until then screw yuor LBS and always go with the shop (online or not) that stocks that qulaity component and accessory.

Further Info on LBS Vs major online storesAddittioanlly, can your LBS compete with Wiggle, Chain reaction cycles and Cyclexpress (to name but a few online shops) for range of choice.
I.e. if you wanted to upgrade your pedals to some good SPDs, maybe Time ATRC ROC, Shimano XTR M970 or carbon Look pedfals I bet your LBS, well a majority of them wont stock the item you are wanting. However look at the range of choice for quality components or what ever suits your budget then the online shops come out tops.

Negative Aspects to LBS
I mean your LBS may have a appauling business plan and cash flow forecast, he may have had run ins with good suppliers and have to revert to naff suppliers selling naff goods, or my may have lost his motivation with business and totally fed up with his business and jst wants to jack it all in and retire in sunny spain aand sipping G&T at pool side. His motivations for setting up business may be wrong and he may have and annoying habit of picking his nose before serving you.

I mean dont judge a book by its cover, there are alot more inner workings than meet the eye with a LBS.

I never kiss some ones chocolate starfish because they are' local' although i would if they were a company like Time or Shimano knocking out superb components;or a shop stocking them.

Postive Aspects to Online Shop selling quality goods
The business could be fresh, new, excting, full of ideas, originality and excellent business plan and cash flow forecast, with excellent deals with the suppliers of good stuff. They may have invested vast amounts in a customer service and everyone could be writing really good positive reports about the shop.

LBS Vs 2nd hand Online quality parts
Second Hand Goods
Your LBS also wont stock a range of second hand, wether unsued, hardly used or quality componenets but online traders will.

AndyManc

If your LBS has got what you want, or a comparable item ... then buy it off them even if it may cost slightly more.

Obviously I don't subscribe to blind loyalty but where possible I like to support all local shops especially the independents.

Spitchips - BANNED

AndyManc wrote:

If your LBS has got what you want, or a comparable item ... then buy it off them even if it may cost slightly more.

Obviously I don't subscribe to blind loyalty but where possible I like to support all local shops especially the independents.

what is so special about supporting MY LBS in West Yorkshire who has about as customer service skills as a dead and squashed fly on your cycle sunglasses when for arguements sake in Devon is top quality online shop with 99.9% postive remarks from customers.

I mean big deal LBS have a entrance for public to browse in the shop. SO what if they are within my town centre.

What is with the 'oh no, cant support the online shop with good stuff which does not have a door for customers, oh no, we cant have that, we must judge the shop by the shop floor' I mean what sort of mentality is that.

Are you saying Wiggle is not an independant shop?

tardington

I think the point was that the LBS will be your local repair place as much as anything else?

There are various LBS's in edinburgh, with service standards that very widely (screw you, Bikeworks, you are ASSHOLES) but you go to the nearest one for traumatic repairs!

Of course you'll do your main shopping for expensive things online, but for things like inner tubes and brake pads and the likes, I do go to my LBS... if they died I would be stuck!

Rich158

It sounds like you have a crap LBS. I have two close to me, one crap with a limeted choice of components but they stock at least four major brands, and one that does a good line in components but with only two major brands.

The issue with mosts LBS's is the quantity they can sell goods in, I mean why have every possible permutation of Dura Ace cranksets sitting on the shelf tying up theiir cash floow, when they only sell maybe two or three a year. It's all about striking a balance and some get it right, some don't. Sure on-line traders can sell their goods at a slightly cheaper price, normally because they have lower overheads and a higher volume, and sometimes because they're selling grey imports and OEM stuff like Chainreaction.

The argument for your LBS over an online store will always be service. I mean, who are you going to go to iif you need a new headset fitted in a rush, or a new part for that weekend trip when you check the bike on Friday afternoon and discover somethings knackered. I always try to strike a balance between buying online and using my LBS. And there are some things an LBS can offer you than an on-line trader can't. For instance I'm in the markket for a new bike and my LBS arranged a back to back test of a Trek Madone and Giant TCR for me, letting me have both bikes over an entire weekend.

I'm going to keep supporting my LBS for the simple reason that if I need a part in a hurry to salvage my weekend ride they are always there for me, and they proviide an invaluable service - when I'm pissed off with shopping on a saturday afternoon I know I can always pop in for a cup of tea and a chat about bikes while her indoors is looking at shoes.

Spitchips - BANNED

If I was to ever open a bike shop then one of the first things I would do is set up a large shop on the outskirts of a town centre and have about 25% of floor space geared towards retail sales but the main thrust would be the 75% of the shop doing online sales. Everyone knows that in order to stay alive as a business then online is essential. I would also buy in massive bulk only the top quality components and sell at really good price, a bit like a connoiuser of bikes. I could generate a massive customer base by doing online sales, after all its only a mail order service business, they catalogue is just online (electronic version).

I really have a passion for good bike and good componentnts and would love to share my passion with the customers; that would be part of my business plan. I feel as a start this is a way better better business plan than most LBs who are basically just used as a garage these days.

I would love to think that if you ever say my website and the stock I was selling, the speed a t which I could deliver the goods and the price of the goods would win you over as a customer. I mean I could even setup some video chat with customers so we coudl chat face to face over tinternet.

I would also be very surprised and annoyed that you were happier to shop at LBS just because the were physically present in your town over my shop (theoritcally speaking) who offered a level of service like John Lewis shops or Waitrose.

I can see the point about needing a mechanic to fix bikes and yes this is were LBS comes into play but for a shop selling a vast array of good stock this is were they fall flat on their face.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Why not stop talking and get on with setting up your online business?

Let us know how you get on.

Rich158

OK a couple of points

If your on the outskirts of town, how do you expect to generate enough footfall for you retails operation to survive. The reason most LBS's stock a wide range of bikes is that for every £2k bike they sell, they sell over twice that value in lower spec bikes.

So you have a passion for bikes and good quality components, and that makes you stand out. I've got news for you, the reason the majority of people open a bikes store is because they have a passion for bikes. In my LBS all the staff ride, everything from BMX to road bikes, and many of them have competed at a local level, and the same goes for 90% of bike stores I have ever been into, even Evans and Halfords.

I would also be very surprised and annoyed that you were happier to shop at LBS just because the were physically present in your town over my shop (theoritcally speaking) who offered a level of service like John Lewis shops or Waitrose.

With that sort of attitude I wouldn't even touch your shop, after all you can't possibly pre--judge how good my LBS is, they may be Harrods to your John Lewis for all you know. I want to speak to people who treat me like an equal, not some arrogrant prick who thinks he knows it all.

If you think you'll have the time for a video chat with all your customers then you more naive than I thought you were, either that or you going to have to set up a call centre type operation.

The simple fact is that there's space for both an LBS and on-line sales, those that offer a goood service will prosper, those that don't will fail. I'll contine to support my local traders because they are the lifeblood of my comunity.

Spitchips - BANNED

Rich158 wrote:

OK a couple of points

If your on the outskirts of town, how do you expect to generate enough footfall for you retails operation to survive. The reason most LBS's stock a wide range of bikes is that for every £2k bike they sell, they sell over twice that value in lower spec bikes.

So you have a passion for bikes and good quality components, and that makes you stand out. I've got news for you, the reason the majority of people open a bikes store is because they have a passion for bikes. In my LBS all the staff ride, everything from BMX to road bikes, and many of them have competed at a local level, and the same goes for 90% of bike stores I have ever been into, even Evans and Halfords.

I would also be very surprised and annoyed that you were happier to shop at LBS just because the were physically present in your town over my shop (theoritcally speaking) who offered a level of service like John Lewis shops or Waitrose.

With that sort of attitude I wouldn't even touch your shop, after all you can't possibly pre--judge how good my LBS is, they may be Harrods to your John Lewis for all you know. I want to speak to people who treat me like an equal, not some arrogrant prick who thinks he knows it all.

If you think you'll have the time for a video chat with all your customers then you more naive than I thought you were, either that or you going to have to set up a call centre type operation.

The simple fact is that there's space for both an LBS and on-line sales, those that offer a goood service will prosper, those that don't will fail. I'll contine to support my local traders because they are the lifeblood of my comunity.

This whole setting up a bike shop was more of a fantasy type idea rather than a serious idea, if my career path goes according too plan who knows what i might get my teeth into next and one thought was a mail order bike shop. At present it is a long term plan with a few years to go yet, if ever.

I am glad you have a good LBS near you and sorry may have come across as someone with a attitude problem I just sometimes find it hard to understand this old fashioned loyalty to the LBS. Yes, I am a fan off independant traders.

Although Rich 185 I bet you dont always shop in the indepepandant: supermarket (ie not Tesco), cd shop, dvd shop, green grocers, butchers, burger bars etc. I bet there has been times you have gone to Argos, franchise stores, chain stores like Boots or Superdrug. I imagine you live in a town full of chain stores, cloned liked all the other towns and you shop in them - oh apart from your LBS. So you seem to hav this support the LBS stance why not extend it to all the other shops you go to and boycott the big stores.

Any whats your definition of a 'arrogant prick' I mean I know that Shimano XTR are way better than the cheap £150 full suspension bikes you get in Halfords - even a decent bottom bracket costs more than the whole bike. YEs, do have a knowledge of bikes adn yes I know good stuff when I seeit.

So would you say Wayne Rooney is arrogant if someone came along and he was telling them what boots too buy, what football to buy, whats best for breakfast before a game and stuff I think not.

Spitchips - BANNED

Rich158 wrote:

I want to speak to people who treat me like an equal, not some arrogrant prick who thinks he knows it all.

I think too a degree you might be right about my arrogance, afteralll we are all human and we all have flaws, you have managed in nit picking one and pulled on out, do you want a medal? I am sure you have your flaws too; actually know what it is - yuo are too hyper-anaytical and scutionise everything. I can do some embarrasing stuff anyway and have put my foot right in it but thats another story.

For the benefit of you I will try and turn the volume down of my knowledge and come across as a ordinary person.

One more poingt though, all these people in Bike Radar who review the bikes and gear and either give it 3 stars or 5 five stars would you say they are arrogant? If theye know there wheat from chaff then I am going to listen to them, I am not calling them arrogant.

Spitchips - BANNED

can I just ask Greg 66 why do you have too virtually identical road bikes? And would like to say how cool they look too. Bet you are chuffed - I would be.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Spitchips wrote:

can I just ask Greg 66 why do you have too virtually identical road bikes? And would like to say how cool they look too. Bet you are chuffed - I would be.

Thanks. In a word, geometry. I used to have a large stable of a mix of bikes. I got fed up with the fact that I was never in the same position on any two of them. In fact, they used to be a closer match: the fork on the R3SL was the SL version of the fork on the Soloist, but it was recalled, and so I put the Edge fork on it.

Going back to the LBS, the one thing that differentiates a bike store from most other high street store is that a bike needs maintenance. Groceries don't. I do my own servicing, but there are things I can't do (eg cut a fork, or, if I needed to/had to, cut an ISP, chase and face a bottom bracket). There are also things that are very easy to do (eg readjust brakes) and things that aren't (re-index a rear mech, change a BB, fit a headset), and not all home mechanics will be able to do everything. So there is a value to having an LBS which doesn't have many parallels on the High Street.

lost_in_thought

Spitchips wrote:

For the benefit of you I will try and turn the volume down of my knowledge and come across as a ordinary person.

Thanks SC. Because honestly, all the knowledge was kind of upsetting me. You are after all the Wayne Rooney of cycling.

I don't think you'd get far selling only top quality components and nothing else. The people who buy the best of the best don't do so often, and as others have said the LBS makes most of its money selling mid- to low-range kit and accessories. I think this is most likely true for online sales too.

I totally agree with the above that the best reason for loyalty to the LBS is that they can sort your bike out sharpish if something is wrong that's beyond your reach. That would be another issue with the out-of-town shop as opposed to the town centre shop.

And of course psychologically people prefer a physical shop front to an online store. They feel reassured by speaking to an actual person, they can (often) take away what they bought immediately, they can inspect (for whatever reason) what they're buying. I don't think video conferencing is a substitute for this.

Spitchips - BANNED

8) Thanks for your valuable input L.I.T 8)

The_Darkness

My LBS is also rubbish. I wont support them to subsidise the masses who are too stupid to do so. I'll cycle the extra 5 miles or so to support a decent LBS for the repairs I cant do at home.

But if you do knowingly support a crap LBS you are not helping the situation.

akcc05

Don't screw the LBSs. I like them, the good ones anyway. They often give valuable opinions on components and on many other stuff. Those people probably cycle a lot more than we do and therefore knows about long term performances of components better than us, or even the reviews here where tests may be short term. And did I mention test rides? I think wiggle offers a 5-day test ride with postage paid but I'm not sure I can be bothered with that. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against online shopping when it comes to cycling, I have spend thousands on wiggle and CRC. Like someone said, SC must have had some bad experience with LBS. Can you chat with a CRC sales assistant over a cuppa about Lance Armstrong's career for an hour after closing hour? I think not, even with a webcam. If you were really opening a bike shop, my best advice is to only hire people who have true passion about cycling as sport and are willing to share it to unconverted souls, for that is what would make me loyal to a bike shop.

I think someone mentioned something about OEM components that a lot of online retailers sale, OEMs may look the same as aftersales but they may differ in quality, e.g. bolts may be steel instead of alloy. I remember someone told me there was this guy praising how he had an amazing deal on a fork until a magnet was stuck on his headtube, turned out the steerer was steel and not alloy. Also, don't forget that wiggle doesn't have a shop front, CRC and Merlin has, which is why Specialized, along with other bigger brands with strong bargaining power, say "screw you" to them.

This is just the way I see this whole thing. I'm sure there are a lot of things in the industry that I don't know so please don't call me arrogant!

Rich158

Oh the joys of posting whilst drinking :roll:

To answer your question I've been riding bikes on and off for over 30 years, so have some knowledge to draw on. In the last 10 years I've ridden everything from mountain bikes, both XC and DH, have raced DH. I have now got myself a road bike to commute on. I pride myself on my mechanical knowledge, have built all my own bikes and my kids ones. TBH my coments on arrogance weren't aimed at anyone in particular, although I have experienced some spellbinding arrogance in various shops, who now never get y custom.

Perhaps I am lucky, but I am blessed with two good LBS's on my doorstep, both of whom recognise that they don't know everything.

Spitchips - BANNED

Rich158 wrote:

Oh the joys of posting whilst drinking :roll:

Yeah, I sometimes feel a little :oops: after hitting the 'submit/send button'

simon_ramsey

I support my local LBS as they have given me excellent service but also shop online for what I consider "consumables". I get my MTB and forks serviced by them once a year £100-150, got my disk brakes from them as I needed them fitted. They have fixed wheels that I have buckled and thought I needed a new rim and have given me small parts for free.

Although I have also spent over £500 on wiggle :shock:

I have an MTB and a Commute bike and the day I finally give in and buy a road bike (I have been fighting the urge to spend £££££'s for a while). I will go to my LBS to test ride and buy one. I know they will give me a discount if I ask, won't be able to match the web but I will get the bike I want for a fair price and will be happy to give them my money.

itboffin

I support my various LBS's they are all very friendly and luckily for me they specialise in different cycling disciplines, helpful and expert service.

I also still spend a fortune online.

cjcp

itboffin wrote:

and luckily for me they specialise in different cycling disciplines, helpful and expert service.

And luckily for them, you are a bike geek who specialises in buying anything remotely to do with bikes

itboffin

cjcp wrote:

itboffin wrote:

and luckily for me they specialise in different cycling disciplines, helpful and expert service.

And luckily for them, you are a bike geek who specialises in buying anything remotely to do with bikes

Indeed I do, I found a new FSA stem this morning for £10 - it's well hidden in the garage amongst the other parts i've had for ages. sssshhh!

cjcp

For which bike?

OldSkoolKona

I support both my LBS and I also use the online traders. I've had good times and bad times with both, so no one can ever generalise. Often I go into my LBS and order something with them they don't have in stock. Probably costs a little extra, but for larger items, it saves the hassle of being at home to get deliveries and I like to support them. In general, for the consumables I'll go online.

I would also say, SC, that the world of retail is a lot more complex than you post about, and that the cut throat world of the high street isn't pleasant. Having said that, a lot of LBS's need to work on their USP, their customer service, as it often leads a lot to be desired. Have you highlighted your gripes with the shop SC? Often some constructive feedback can be invaluable for a retailer.

With regards to CRC, I'd point out that they did start out as an LBS, and if you ever find yourself in the vincinity of their warehouse in Northern Ireland, that I recommend you pop into their show room, as they still very much treat their customers there as they did back in their formative LBS days.

The Chingford Skinhead

While I shop on line I am increasingly using my LBS. Despite being a small shop it has often had what I wanted in stock whereas I couldn't get it online. More importantly you build up a relationship with the LBS. That means you get advice. Lots of threads on here about different tyres or jackets or other components. The enthusiast - and that is what most staff in shops are - selling to you will be able to give you that advice and more.

Online is often cheaper but as a regular customer I often get money off (we'll call it £x) can get my LCC discount :P and often get things done for me - pedals fitted free, rim checked when buying a new tyre and said tyre fitted as the wheel was with me.

As a small shop they value my custom as I value their expertise. a virtuous circle.

Spitchips - BANNED

Further to my opinion on this matter I have looked further affield than my LBS and went to a neighbouring city called Leeds. At Leeds I stumbld upon a cool LBS shop called Stif in Headingley. The staff were polite, well educated, into bike riding outside of work and the shop was well kitted out, formerly a restaurant I believe. The walls were red brick finsih and loads of old wooden beams.

The bike selection and accessory was good with a great selection of TRek, Orange and Swobo bikes and another called irbis or something. And they were knocking out some quality accessories and components like Hope lights and M647 pedals. Although I waould have banned all non-english branded goods and just stocke mainly Orange and Hope goods. Well at least Orange bikes only.

So this goes to show if you have a good lbs then you are lucky, unfortunately mine is mediocre and would have happily brought something other than my boardnman bike from hal fords.

One complaint though is why cant they setup their shop to do online sales and offer better prices so cam keep up with online market prices as retail prices can be sharp!

lost_in_thought

So hold on spitchips...

If you're only selling top quality, and only english-branded goods, I think you might be missing the market... and have a pretty empty shop.

OldSkoolKona

Agree with you whole heartedly there TCS, a good LBS is worth it's weight in Titanium water cage bolts and you can't put a value on developing that relationship with them, which often pays off, as it has done for you. Particularly when it comes to buying a new bike, something I'd never consider doing online.

LiT, I reckon you should start charging SC for your retail consultancy

lost_in_thought

Yeah, I am like totally the dogs at retail.

SC you owe me a tenner.

But seriously... what do you get that is both english-made and top quality in the world of cycling, with the obvious exception of Team GB... and even they are scottish in all their best bits...

Spitchips - BANNED

lost_in_thought wrote:

Yeah, I am like totally the dogs at retail.

SC you owe me a tenner.

But seriously... what do you get that is both english-made and top quality in the world of cycling, with the obvious exception of Team GB... and even they are scottish in all their best bits...

Like I said before Orange bikes and Hope components (made near Lancashire).

They are one of the very few left companies who actually make stuff over here like Dyson. Everything else is imported. All this import malakee is not helping with English/British businesses go from strength to strength. With our support for home-grown goods we acan help to boost our economy, get people working for those businesses and help get out production line back on the map.

I belive that 'counter' retail advice is worth £20. So I can wipe the £10 debt clean and now you owe me £10!

lost_in_thought

Spitchips wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Yeah, I am like totally the dogs at retail.

SC you owe me a tenner.

But seriously... what do you get that is both english-made and top quality in the world of cycling, with the obvious exception of Team GB... and even they are scottish in all their best bits...

Like I said before Orange bikes and Hope components (made near Lancashire).

They are one of the very few left companies who actually make stuff over here like Dyson. Everything else is imported. All this import malakee is not helping with English/British businesses go from strength to strength. With our support for home-grown goods we acan help to boost our economy, get people working for those businesses and help get out production line back on the map.

I belive that 'counter' retail advice is worth £20. So I can wipe the £10 debt clean and now you owe me £10!

Get back to the MTB forum... jeez. We're talking about bikes for grown-ups over here.

Now you owe me £20.