Cyclocross tyres in 26x1 3/8 size???

stickman

Are there any in production?

alfablue

Schwalbe CX-Pro in 26x1.35 in stock at CRC 30/1/09, maybe in stock elswewhere.

stickman

Thanks, that's excellent to know as I am finding out what tyres are available to see which bike I will use - the tyre you mentioned though is decimal inches not fractional inches these types don't fit each other.

alfablue

Er, the decimal inches bit, I presume you mean the 1.35 is "fractionally" smaller than the 1 3/8 you want (1 3/8 = 1.375 inches, so 0.025 inches larger), there really should be no fitting issues.

alfablue

or to put it another way, according to the Schwalbe site, the 26x1.35 measures 35mm wide, 1 3/8 inches = 34.925mm, so the difference is 0.075mm.

stickman

I understand the point you make but it's not that - fractional tyres and decimal tyre are measured by different methods, they have different diameters so they cannot fit each others wheels.

alfablue

Are you using some old or weird rims???

Schwalbe CX=Pro's are 35-559, conventional mtb 26 inch tyres are also 559 (ETRTO) diameter. I fully accept that there are differences between fractional and metric sizes, but the vast majority of modern rims conform to 26 inches fitting 559 mm tyres.

I am sure you have this fully sussed, as does Sheldon Brown of course. Though he does point out there is some dishonesty in sizing.

stickman

Fractional is the traditional British method, decimal 26 came from the USA via mountain bikes. My lbs sells fractional bikes and even Halfords stocks a few of the tyres. A fractional 26 has a diameter that is 31mm bigger.

alfablue

Yes, I wonder what bikes or wheels currently come with that sizing? What are you riding? Is your fractional 26 therefore 590mm? So a 650A? I have come across bikes with 650B's.

stickman

Yes 650a is an alternate name. I have a Raleigh Chiltern and a Hawk Royale which are fractional the Chiltern is 1980s-90s the Hawk is 14 months old. The Hawk is converted to mtb wheels but I might buy another one if 1 3/8 cx tyres are available.

alfablue

The Hawk must be a rarity! Not come across these. I think the CX tyre is going to be tricky! Good luck.

GarethPJ

It's not exactly a cross tyre, but the Schwalbe Speedway Pro should do the job. Can be had for a tenner from Archie Wilkinson. Archie also sells some good rims in that size. Schwalbe do a decent range of tyres for the good old 590 size.

Ignore all the people who don't understand English wheel sizing. I sold a Coventry Eagle on t'ebay a while back and stated that it had '26x1 1/4" inch tyres and wheels, not the modern MTB size but the old English lightweight size' and ended up with some idiot arguing with me. He was adamant that they must be 27x1 1/4" and that 26x1 1/4" didn't exist! Even when I emailed him a photograph of the sizing embossed on the tyre and another of one of the wheels against the 27" wheel on my Carlton he was still sure I was mistaken.

stickman

Thanks, that's excellent, I thought i'd never find them in that size. Archie's site is interesting.

Yes, it's a shame the imperial sizes are becoming obsolete, maybe there should be a campaign to promote 650a wheels, the 650b is supposed to maybe a future standard for mtb so why not 650a as one of the choices for road/cross. I suppose we'll lose all our British weights + measures to metric eventually.
I've heard that 650a is big in Japan though!

bear baun

so you can ride cyclocross tyres on a conventional 700c road bike?

mz__jo

Funny how few people understand tyre sizes. It gets easier when you think in ISO sizing.
You obviously don't need this information but for others who read this thread and don't know the following might be useful:

24" mtb = "n" x 507 where "n" is the tyre section

24" narrow section = "n"x 520

26" mtb = "n" x 559

26" x 1 1/2" = 650B = "n" x 584

26" x 1 3/8" = 650A = "n" x 590

26" x 1 1/4" = 650 Junior = "n" x 596

700C = "n" x 622

27" x 1 1/4" = "n" x 630

I have not tried to include tyre sizes for 650C or 29" mtb as I don't know them offhand. If I have made an error with one of the others feel free to correct me (I can never remember if 26 x 1 1/4 is 595 or 596). Obviously (to me anyway) ISO sizes are in mm.

Coming back to the subject of the post, I didn't know that 26 x 1 3/8 cyclo-cross tyres ever really existed although forty years ago some kids at school had very chunky studded rubber on their utility bikes (which were 26 x 1 3/8 ).
I have recently changed my tandem from 26 x 1 3/8 to 650B because of the difficulty in finding suitable rims and tyres in France (and I was uncomfortable about continually searching on the web when I needed replacement tyres). Having made the change I discovered that Schwalbe made suitable tyres but the rim problem was always there. 650B wheels with Schwalbe 38 section tyres are aesthetically a very acceptable alternative but the 3mm difference in radius was in my case enough to put my old rear caliper brake out of range (the frame should have a Resilion cantilever). However the Rigida rims made for the Confrerie du 650B are very nice, solid rims.
It is reported on the site of the Confrerie that off-road 650B tyres exist in the USA (probably horribly expensive, the Confrerie like using Michelin folding road tyres that cost about £30 a piece. This could be an alternative if your brakes will tolerate a rim 3mm smaller in radius.
I like the photos. I had a pair of Sturmey hub brakes on the tandem; they were steel and dated from the early 80's. Lovely brakes but the rear had bearings that would have looked small on a kid's tricycle. They failed totally after 15 months. The front survived another 25 years and eventually the brake drum went oval. I now have a Sachs VT500 on the front, terrible brake but the bearings give a lot more confidence.
Cheers Jo

GarethPJ

29er is the same rim diameter as a 700c so it's ISO/ETRTO 622.
27five is the same rim diameter as 650B so it's 584
650C is 571

BTW 26x1 1/4" is 597 not 596.

I find the use of 29er and 27five designations annoying. Designations like 26x2.3 are bad enough, since neither of those tyres have outer diameters even close to 26", only 26x1.75" is actually 26". Adding 29" and 27.5" designations to existing rim sizes only confuses matters more. The only English tyre size I can recall this happening with was the 27" size when, along with the origial 27x1 1/4" you could also buy 27x1 1/8" and 27x1".

When it comes to 590 rims we still get them in the UK. Not sure how popolar cycle speedway is in France, if it exists at all, but 590 is the most common size in the sport in the UK so that ensures still a resonable supply of quality alloy rims.

Freemans still stock 590 in aluminium and steel and even 597 in steel. Their steel rims aren't the best quality but they are cheap and have kept some old Brit lightweights on the road on the correct tyre size.

stickman

Bear,
I don't have a 700c bike or plenty of money so I had to look at other options, i'm planning to get speedway tyres now.

(One thing I was considering was 700c wheels on a 1 3/8 bike, I don't know what wheel clearance and brakes would have been like)

Jo,
Great post, thanks for the compliment on the photos. The Sturmey hubs have cartridge bearings - don't know how long they'll last though!
There's a link to a wheel size chart that I posted on this forum.

GarethPJ

stickman wrote:

Bear,


(One thing I was considering was 700c wheels on a 1 3/8 bike, I don't know what wheel clearance and brakes would have been like)

The problem with this option is that you usually end up running pretty skinny tyres to get the clearance, which to some eyes can look a bit wrong. Not as silly as 559's look as replacements. I've seen it done with a 1.5 inch tyre and the clearance was huge and the brake drop terrifying.

I do think it's a shame they chose 650B as the new MTB half way house instead of 590's. However if the 27five (stupid name) takes off like the 29er (another stupid name) then it may give you some more options in future.

On the subject of sizing why do so many Americans insist on calling 700c road bike wheels 28 inches? You'd need 45mm tyres on there to get a 28 inch diameter, not something you see on many road bikes.

stickman

Gareth,
Some good points there. With the 700c onto a 1 3/8 I was thinking more of diameter clearance, I know some people have done it but manufacturers can have variations in frame/fork dimensions.

I think my '1 3/8 to mtb' commuter looks normal

If you hear of a 650a campaign let me know, i'll join it!

mz__jo

I was not even aware of 650B as an official mtb tyre. The Confrerie will be turning in their collective grave; they don't like mtbs, they accuse them of having tried to kill off the immortal french randonneuse!
I'll sign up for a save the 26 x 1 3/8 campaign. The tyre I would like to see saved even more is 27 x 1 1/4. I have never quite understood why 32 x 622 is a lousy performer and 32 x 630 is about the best there is (and the most versatile). However I am not changing the tandem back for the next quarter century and I am just converting my mtb for touring with 26 x 1.5 road tours (which perform remarkably well). Just call me hypocrit!!
Cheers Jo
PS Thanks for the correction on 26 x 1 1/4

GarethPJ

27five is the irritating American name for 650B because 27.5" is supposedely the diameter of the MTB tyres fitted to that rim. Which would be a nominal section of 2.25 inches, anything else wouldn't actually be 27.5" which is why the naming convention is so silly.

Anyway the idea behind using this size of wheel is that it will have all the advantages of both the 29er (high speed and good at rolling over bumps) and the 26 (quick to change direction and accelerate). However I suspect that what most people will notice is that it has the disadvantages of both types. The 29er devotee will find it slow rolling while the 26 conservative will find it slow to respond.

The "new" size apparently started life in California. There isn't really any practical need for it and I suspect that it is the result of the industry running out of new ideas. IME most Americans like to have the lastest and greatest of anything, it's the logical extension of the consumerist society. Which is why this "trend" started in America. They've done all the other trends to death. For example there's nothing new on the horizon for suspension. As long as you have a new suspension design you can sell the gullible consumer a new frame every year, but once you've sold them the idea that 700c wheels are superior you can't sell them the idea again next year.

Funilly enough the most enduring trends, single speeding, 29ers and of course MTBs themselves started as udergroud movements. The 27five appears to be a factory generated "trend" and only time will tell if it takes off. Quite what they will do next I don't know. I suppose there's always 24" wheels, they seem to have died away for everything other than jump bikes.

In a couple of years will they be trying to tell mountain bikers that what they really need is smaller wheels?

PS My personal preference for a 29 inch radius would be the Surly Endomorph. Now *that* would protect you against pinch flats.

mz__jo

So the real truth is that none of these sizes are actually new. If the result of 27.5 is a greater interest in and wider choice of rims then there will be few objections in France (you would have difficulty fitting a 2.25" tyre on the Rigida rim, it's not too wide). If it becomes a fashion trend that doesn't last very long then it could end up doing more harm than good. However 26 x 1 3/8 rims are traditionally wide rims and it would have been a more suitable choice for a "new" offroad tyre.
What is supposed to be the difference between a 29er wheel and a hybrid wheel? They both use large section off-road or dual-purpose tyres, yet the 29er is legal for mtb racing (at least in some categories), the hybrid isn't, and I think neither would be accepted in upper category cyclo-cross (which also uses an off-road tyre on a 622 rim)!

GarethPJ

There is no particular difference between a 29er wheel and a hybrid wheel. Assuming we are talking about a chunky tyred hybrid. The real difference is in the tyres. Some 29er rims are wider than the average hybrid rim.

As for fitting a 2.3" tyre to a 650B rim, bear in mind that the rims will be specifically made for mountain bikes and as such may be wider than a traditional 650B rim. Anyhow, according to Mavic, a 26x2.3" tyre will fit a rim as narrow as 559x19c. So it doesn't take a vary wide rim to take a 2.3" tyre.

stickman

I've been thinking more about how good it would be to have the 650a as standard for MTBs, commuters, all general purpose bikes of that type of size wheel. Manufactures could then provide all kinds of widths, treads and colours. Would there have to be name variations for fatter tyres - 26a x 1 3/8, 26b x 1 3/8 etc. or would there be no need? And would roadies want to also change to 650a and abandon 700c?

GarethPJ

A good bike is a thing of beauty and a joy forever (to paraphrase). As such the bike industry have a problem. Of late they have built their entire business model along similar lines to other industries, in particular many other industries have tried to copy the model used by the IT and electronic gadget industries. The problem is that those industries thrive on innovation and the market has to have the latest thing (well some of it does, my laptop is ancient). True innovation is rare in the bicycle industry so they have to fake it.

A few years ago a "revolution" started in touring bikes MTB wheels were supposedly stronger than 700c equivalent, so touring bikes started to appear equipped with 559 wheels. Then of course the MTB 29er revolution which saw 700c rims being fitted to MTBs.

So the 650B MTB "standard" is just another step in the same interminable dance.

It won't be long before another "standard" comes along. Who knows what it will be? ISO635 rims on roadbikes? 24" wheels on MTBs (again)? Anything that will result in loads of gullible fools buying unnecessary new bikes will suit the industry. Wait long enough and no doubt a 590 standard will probably come along for a short while at least.

I think this new standard may be a step too far in the current economic climate.

stickman

It's more bad news about the 650a, I went to buy a singlespeed today and the shop had none in stock and they will no longer be having any in the future, it's the same with the 3 speed 650a apart from 2 left which they can order. I'm going to phone another branch to see if they have any singlespeeds remaining, if not i'll order a 3 speed.
It looks like the good old British size is really dying out now, I can only think of cycle speedway remaining - and I wonder how long will they hold out?

GarethPJ

Freemans are still listing 590 wheels with alloy rims in three speed, single speed and derailleur fittings with aluminium rims, and the 597 in the same fittings with a steel rim. Things are not so bleak as you may think.

stickman

That's good spares-wise, but no complete bikes?
I've had thoughts of getting a cycle speedway bike as they are built for pure speed, if the dropout width is ok they could be fitted with hub brakes, does anyone know this? How would they perform as a CX bike?

GarethPJ

Probably the best supplier of cycle speedway bikes is Archie Wilkinson you can find him at http://www.archie-wilkinson.co.uk/ you may need to discuss geometry as cycle speedway is a very different discipline to CX. Short straights and tight turns, with hard acceleration but not high top speeds.

Rather than hub brakes I'd be more inclined to get canti bosses brazed on. But if you are going to the trouble of building a custom bike it might be worth getting something built based on a 700c cross bike, but with the brake bosses moved down by 16mm.

stickman

I had a look at the Archie site, at the compoments, they appear to have the relevent holes for fitting caliper brakes. As you said, the question is would the geometry be any good for cx?

stickman

I ordered a 3 speed 650a yesterday, they said as far as they know there are only 2 left in the country (and there's no singlespeed 650a bikes at all) I would have prefered a cycle speedway bike but there was the geometry question for cx. I'd love to get one in the future though even if only as a cool street bike. Shame they don't take off as a trend - one way to keep 650a alive.