Flat Bars v Drops

alfablue

Dead right about road wheels, I had some handbuilt Mavic Open Pro's for my Audax bike 6 years ago, whilst the are now getting a bit thin the have stayed 100% true and I have used them on all sorts of terrain and often with a load, and I am no lightweight! Fitted with 700x25 tyres, with the pressure towards the top of the range.

jeepie

Yeah - cheers David. Fully admit I don't know that much but I am learning rapidly thanks to the peeps on here. I cleaned my rims with citrus degreaser (advise on here) and that helped no end. Going to actually go out and fully test my brakes as you are right I've just been doing the regularly hanging on the rear brakes, but not fully tested a quick stop!

DavidTQ

Jeepie wrote:

Yeah - cheers David. Fully admit I don't know that much but I am learning rapidly thanks to the peeps on here. I cleaned my rims with citrus degreaser (advise on here) and that helped no end. Going to actually go out and fully test my brakes as you are right I've just been doing the regularly hanging on the rear brakes, but not fully tested a quick stop!

nearly 2 years ago I came to this forum with enthusiasm for the idea of cycling to work to save money and increase fitness and a newly brought hybrid bike. I hadnt ridden since I was a teenager, I asked around on car forums before I came here - what bike I should get and "hybrid" was the answer, so thats what I did... I set my bike up the way I had been taught in cycling proficiency so that I could easily touch the ground with the soles of both feet when stood still... I then wondered why my legs were burning up with every hill - I was standing up (honking) on every hill because of my set up. I based everything I did on what I had learnt when I was about 11 riding a bmx

I then decided the place to go for advice on cycling issues and to try to get myself sorted was a bike forum. The guys here soon had me sorted... seating position was the first thing, just about doubled my speed up hills and cured the leg burn, then came braking and was soon finding braking lovelly and stable I also picked up a lot of things about safer road use that hadnt occured to me, like undertaking lorries and busses being dangerous even in a cycle lane, like indicating with my palm facing backwards ( a lovelly little tool for moving around in traffic)

Primary position was another thing I only picked up from here, and overtaking on the right instead of the left. It sounded so wrong, it looked so wrong from the cycle lane, but once you get out there you see its FAR safer than that narrow little cycle lane, far more space, it just doesnt look it from the left hand side ... Lighting was another one the idea of both a fixed and flashing rear light for calling attention whilst still allowing a driver to fix your position better than a flasher alone... The list goes on and on and on.

I still have stuff to learn, but I have to say the forum really has changed my cycling for the better by far. Another great source of information is Sheldon Browns site, which I only found through the forums, the guy was a legend, http://www.sheldonbrown.com/ take a dig around on the site theres tons of really really good information there!

blackworx

@DavidTQ: And, as if to illustrate your point perfectly...

Indicating palms backward? Been cycling seriously for 20 years, club and solo, and I never even heard of it. What a good idea! I assume it's to add a psychological "stay back" to the turn signal?

DavidTQ

blackworx wrote:

@DavidTQ: And, as if to illustrate your point perfectly...

Indicating palms backward? Been cycling seriously for 20 years, club and solo, and I never even heard of it. What a good idea! I assume it's to add a psychological "stay back" to the turn signal?

Yep thats exactly what it does, you're not being bossy or giving an "order" you're just indicating, but people see a palm towards them and hang back. Often drivers make hesitant split second decisions a moments pause for thought is all it takes to stop a dangerous manouvre when you're about to change lanes or turn a palm backwards which they see for a second as "stay back" gives that pause that stops the dangerous manouvre or makes them give you that tiny bit more room.. It really does work wonders. I first heard of it here but it really made sense and when I tried it it worked brilliantly

snooks

While we're on this handlebar theme

Any thoughts on the angle of the top of the bars? Should the top of the drops go out horizontally? Should they go down slighly? Does this depend on the height of the stem?

I'm still adjusting mine to suit me and the most comfortable position...but are there any thoughts about where a starting point should be?

1


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3

redddraggon

I'm of this sort of angle/shape:

The Chingford Skinhead

Recently got a road bike - though not used it much and need to tighten the braking up as it is very slack and I need the tightness to increase my confidence as I need to find out why you all rave about road bikes and mock hybrids (I like my hybrid - but recognise I could go faster and lighter on a road bike - but need to convince myself I can handle it... anyway enough waffling. The thing I wanted to ask is...

- hand on, some background first. I've got a road bike but the last one I had was in my yoof, many moons ago. A lovely Raleigh Arena so we're talking late 70s early 80s -

So, my question is, what ever happened to the brake extensions that meant you could not only break from the drops and hoods but also from the top bar, hands close to the centre? Was it simply that the gears moved from the downtube and became integral to the breaks? I quite like the top bar position but feel uncomfortable not having the brakes at my finger tips :oops:

snooks

The Chingford Skinhead wrote:

So, my question is, what ever happened to the brake extensions that meant you could not only break from the drops and hoods but also from the top bar, hands close to the centre? Was it simply that the gears moved from the downtube and became integral to the breaks? I quite like the top bar position but feel uncomfortable not having the brakes at my finger tips :oops:

You can still get them, though you'll find them mostly on Cyclo Cross bikes. You can have them fitted retrospectively if you want, but you need to buy the levers, cables and bar tape

lost_in_thought

Where can you get them? I want some!!

Oh and my bars are option 1 or higher.

The Chingford Skinhead

snooks wrote:

The Chingford Skinhead wrote:

So, my question is, what ever happened to the brake extensions that meant you could not only break from the drops and hoods but also from the top bar, hands close to the centre? Was it simply that the gears moved from the downtube and became integral to the breaks? I quite like the top bar position but feel uncomfortable not having the brakes at my finger tips :oops:

You can still get them, though you'll find them mostly on Cyclo Cross bikes. You can have them fitted retrospectively if you want, but you need to buy the levers, cables and bar tape

Umm, seriously tempted, esp as I only got the roadie as a mid-life crisis attempt to return to my yoof. But, won't they interfer with my flappy gear change thingy which is part of the brake mechanism?

roger_merriman

lost_in_thought wrote:

Where can you get them? I want some!!

Oh and my bars are option 1 or higher.

don't you mean the stuby mini mtb levers? or do you mean the old levers connected to the real as you where brake levers?

The Chingford Skinhead

roger merriman wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Where can you get them? I want some!!

Oh and my bars are option 1 or higher.

don't you mean the stuby mini mtb levers? or do you mean the old levers connected to the real as you where brake levers?

I was thinking of the ones that were linked to the real brake levers.

snooks

The Chingford Skinhead wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Where can you get them? I want some!!

Oh and my bars are option 1 or higher.

don't you mean the stuby mini mtb levers? or do you mean the old levers connected to the real as you where brake levers?

I was thinking of the ones that were linked to the real brake levers.

Ah, I was thinking about the stubby MTB levers (for my apparently stubby hands)

The Chingford Skinhead

snooks wrote:

Ah, I was thinking about the stubby MTB levers (for my apparently stubby hands)

Oh well, not to worry. Thanks anyway

roger_merriman

i'm getting some fitted to old red as i do ride on the tops a fair bit, as well as some more modern brakes levers for old red, as i found the shape of the older levers hard to ride on th hoods. for my largish hands any way.

OrbitRider

Just caught up with this thread. As to the earlier points about whether you can brake hard enough with drops: well on one occasion I was riding on the hoods when a car pulled across me suddenly. Cue emergency braking. As I stopped I felt something give. Inspection after the incident showed that my front brake cable had almost snapped through, with only two strands holding it together. The cable was in good repair: there was no sign of previous damage or corrosion. There may be a weak link in drop bar braking systems, but it sure ain't my fingers!

biondino

The old style "suicide" levers, where they are directly attached to the brakes on the hoods, are inefficient and unsafe. The modern version involves separate levers that actually move the brake cable *housing* rather than the cable, but they work just as well as the main brakes. I have them on my Trek and I rode probably 75% on the tops, rather than the hoods or drops, as a result (NB my Trek is a wee bit big for me, which is probably why).

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/Cycle/7/Cane_ ... 360012608/

ansbaradigeidfran

biondino wrote:

The old style "suicide" levers, where they are directly attached to the brakes on the hoods, are inefficient and unsafe.

Inefficient, gotcha. Unsafe? How?

biondino

Well, I certainly couldn't rely on my old ones for an emergency stop. I guess if they're properly installed or maintained it may just be a matter of getting to used to the hand action and force required?

biondino

From the guru:

Sheldon Brown wrote:

This system has several drawbacks:

* The extension lever partially applied the main brake lever, reducing the available lever travel. Not all brands/models suffered from this, but the most common ones did.
* The attachment hardware precluded the use of the top of the brake lever hood as a comfortable riding position.
* They encouraged the practice of riding with the hands on the top, middle section of the bar, which is a position that doesn't give very secure control, especially on bumpy surfaces, because the hands are too close together.
* The hardware that held the extension levers to the main levers was prone to fall off.

Other manufacturers produced similar systems, some of which addressed some of these difficulties.

Extenison levers are sometimes known as "safety levers." Since many people believe they actually reduce safety, the slang terms "death grips", "suicide levers" and "turkey wings" are occasionally substituted.

Eau Rouge

ansbaradigeidfran wrote:

biondino wrote:

The old style "suicide" levers, where they are directly attached to the brakes on the hoods, are inefficient and unsafe.

Inefficient, gotcha. Unsafe? How?

Unsafe because they are inefficient and therefore don't stop you as quickly. If I remember my old set correctly, which worked by moving the brake lever itself, they simply couldn't move it as far as I could using my hands.
I'm sure I remember getting my thumbs stuck on the odd occasion too, not a nice feeling.

When I got back on the bike a few months ago the "thing" I dragged out of the garage that I'd never actually rode before didn't have them (despite being at least 25 years old) I too thought I'd need to get a set as I'd miss them and it would be unsafe not having them etc etc.
That lasted all of about a day. I'd probably take them off a bike now if ti had them
The only time I'd riding on the tops now is when I'm struggling up a hill, not a situation where speedy braking has been called for yet.

rb1956

Drop bars are great, and there are lots of useful variations too like randonneur and moustache bars. If you're new to drops, consider getting one of the wider sizes and work your way down, rather than jumping from wide hybrid bars straight to 41cm or something.

As for the up/down "tilt" of the bars I prefer to have the drops pointing slightly down, so that the "corners" are flat. And don't let anyone con you with the idea that drop bars must automatically be set low in relation to your saddle.

Having said all that, I don't have drops on my present bike. This is because I use hub gears with a twist-shifter, and there is no good solution to the problem of mounting twist shifters (invariably designed for straight 22.2mm diameter bars) on drops. I know there are various kluges, but none is satisfactory IMHO. I use a swept-back "flat" bar which gives me two main hand positions; on the grips and on the hooks in front of the brake levers. They're OK, but I've ordered an On-One Mary bar, as a Christmas present to myself, to get my hands further forward.

The main thing to avoid is straight bars, which are a hand-numbing, elbow-straining invention of the devil, usually requiring bar-ends to mitigate the torture.

The Chingford Skinhead

Eau Rouge wrote:

ansbaradigeidfran wrote:

biondino wrote:

The old style "suicide" levers, where they are directly attached to the brakes on the hoods, are inefficient and unsafe.

Inefficient, gotcha. Unsafe? How?

Unsafe because they are inefficient and therefore don't stop you as quickly. If I remember my old set correctly, which worked by moving the brake lever itself, they simply couldn't move it as far as I could using my hands.
I'm sure I remember getting my thumbs stuck on the odd occasion too, not a nice feeling.

When I got back on the bike a few months ago the "thing" I dragged out of the garage that I'd never actually rode before didn't have them (despite being at least 25 years old) I too thought I'd need to get a set as I'd miss them and it would be unsafe not having them etc etc.
That lasted all of about a day. I'd probably take them off a bike now if ti had them
The only time I'd riding on the tops now is when I'm struggling up a hill, not a situation where speedy braking has been called for yet.

Thank you ER and Biondino. See, that's why I love this forum. A mine of knowledge. I was feeling all nostalgic for my suicide levers but now i know what they are called - and why - the desire has disapated.

The Chingford Skinhead

DavidTQ wrote:

Jeepie wrote:

Need to try to tune my brakes more I think. Awesome clips David. The avoid ones do make me laugh! Why bother? So true.

Might be worth looking at how you brake as well I wouldnt want to teach grandma to suck eggs, but Im glad someone here told me about this when I was thinking brakes were innefficient . (In fact Ive learnt a huge amount that has improved my cycling no ends from being around here) A lot of people brake with the rear brake first for fear of an over the handlebars incident, especially if they have had an over the handle bars experience at some point...

The front brake is far more effective at fast slow downs, and over the handle bars risks can be cut down hugely by bracing your arms when you go to brake. What causes the over the handlebars effect is weight transfer if your arms are braced your body trys to keep going forward with your arms braced your body slows down with the bike .

I tend to use the rear brake for minor speed "control" on descents, and in combination with the fronts when stopping fast from speed or when the grounds a bit slippery. When using the front and rear together I apply the front first then the rear and "feel" to what degree I need to use the back \ balance the front etc to help slow down more \ avoid lock up.

I too was a back break man for fear of going over the top until I got onto this forum and read my Sheldon's fine work. The arm bracing idea is good, I'll have to give that a try. Presumably bracing the arms also brings your body up thereby shifting your weight backwards (reducing further the risk of going over the tiop) and making the body more upright adding a wind break element to your braking as well. As Magnus Pike would say Science :!:

trevtherev

Hi Fat Kid
I have been using a genesis day 01 to commute the same distance for the past 2+years...I am now ready to go for drops and am acquiring a Kenesis racelight tk in the new year....I think the real attraction is that with drops you can change your position on a regular basis, which can only be a good thing.

lost_in_thought

Huh, well there you go. I don't want them any more!

biondino

LiT, no, they're good now! The old style ones are crappy. New ones good!

Anyway, fitting them will give you a way of communing with your bike while you're laid up...

spursn17

DavidTQ wrote:

spursn17 wrote:

I'm going to get a road bike for the summer with drops, but I'm factoring in the cost of converting to flat bars as I like the upright position riding in London.

If you like the upright position just change the stem and ride on the hoods, it will be both upright and more comfortable (for most people). The Giant SCR range has a flippable stem that gives a pretty decent upright position.

Heres a quick test for you hang your arms and hands down loose at your sides, which way are your hands pointing? palms back or palms to the side? this will tell you which way your body wants to sit naturally. Next hold your hands in front of you arms bent at 90 degrees and turn your hands so the palm is facing down and your hands are in handle bar position do you feel any slight "pull" in the wrist? for most people road bike bars give more positions that work "with" the body, hence more comfortable longe term.

You can also ride holding the level parts of the bars close to the centre of the stem - I use this position for climbing a lot, when braking ISNT required

alfablue wrote:

Why not just buy a flat barred road bike, it will save you money! Like a Giant FCR, Condor Strada, Boardman Pro Hybrid, etc.

I rode for years on drop bars but as I'm getting older I've found I get neck pain if I lean over and lift my head up. I got rid of my road bike about 8 years ago (hadn't used it since late 80's!) as I had a back injury from playing golf and couldn't ride it comfortably. As most of my commute is in heavy traffic the upright position would suit me, I'm not getting the neck prob on my MTB. I was going to have another bite of the C2W cherry in the spring and get this as I want a proper road bike but with flat bars.....

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/scott/speedster-s30-30-speed-flat-bar-2009-road-bike-ec016347

...then I found out about the sub £1000 carbon framed Boardman road bike, seeing as the Scott is a flat barred roadie I thought I'd convert the B/man and have a top banana flat barred bike, but I'll probably give it a go with the drops first.

simple_salmon

Took me ages to figure out what you were all talking about re suicide levers but I think they are what we in rural Surrey called 'lazees' when I was a mere alevin.