running red lights (on a left turn)...

Rich158

dondare wrote:

Rich158 wrote:

A quick straw poll amongst my non riding friends shows that the general feeling is that cyclists are a menace simply because they're not insured, and therefore act with impunity, evidently we do whatever we like because there is no comeback, and have complete disregard for other road users because of this :shock: :shock: :shock: They don't seem to understand that not being killed is normally ample incentive for most cyclists to act responsibly.

Somethings to tell your friends.
Many cyclists are insured, through the CTC or whichever club they belong to; or will have personal liability insurance added to their household insurance that covers them when they are on the bike. Premiums are very low because cyclists rarely cause expensive accidents. All cyclists, whether insured or not, are entirely accountable for any accidents, injury or death that they cause.

Many motorists are not insured because the premiums are prohibitively expensive. They are expensive because motorists are forever causing expensive accidents. Motorists are also accountable for the death and damage that they cause but many don't stop; hit-and-runs are commonly reported in local papers and most motorists know that if they return to a parked car and find it damaged the perpetrator will have disappeared without trace.

I'm only too painfully aware of uninsured motorists, havng had one car completely written off by an uninsured drunk driver whilst parked outside my house, and having exactly the same thing happen six months later, only this time the car was damaged noy written off. It came as no surprise that both cars were reported stolen the next morning.

What does seem to colour peoples perception of cylists, particualarly in London, are the cycle couriers, and having ridden with an ex-courier over the summer I can testify to their lunacy. It's an unfortunate fact that the cyclist who runs a red light will always be remembered over the 10 who stopped for it.

biondino

I'm not sure your figures are accurate there, Rich - I'd go for "the cyclist who runs a red light will always be remembered over the cyclist who stopped for it"

DavidTQ

biondino wrote:

I'm not sure your figures are accurate there, Rich - I'd go for "the cyclist who runs a red light will always be remembered over the cyclist who stopped for it"

Sadly I think you're probably right, I suspect that although in this section of the forum the majority of us do stop for Red lights, people on this section of the forum are more likely to be the cyclists who take their road cycling more seriously (puttig the time and effort to register and post on cycling issues in the first place probably makes us 1 in 1000) and are not representative of cyclists in general. I wouldnt want to be the one to extrapolate figures based on surveys on this forum and say they applied to the world in general.

dirk_van_gently

This appears to have descended into yet another RLJer thread. Zzzzz
However:
The original question is a valid one, why not turn left on red ? IF safe to do so. This is not just for cyclists but all traffic.
Many places in europe have a flashing amber right filter light, which allows for a right turn (if safe to do so) even if the traffic lights are red, similarly the US in most places right turn on red (if safe to do so) is the norm.

Rich158

biondino wrote:

I'm not sure your figures are accurate there, Rich - I'd go for "the cyclist who runs a red light will always be remembered over the cyclist who stopped for it"

Ok, I was exagerating to make my point. It's still a valid one though.

Back to the Left turn on a red - whilst it may be safe some of the time, if it perpetuates a negative stereotype of cyclists then it's not worth doing for the sake of a couple of minutes extra time.

chromehoof

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

This appears to have descended into yet another RLJer thread. Zzzzz

It seemed a natural progression though. I can't get over how some people are trying to stigmatise those who admit to RLJ'ing. People are posting, and qualifying or justifying their RLJ'ing by saying its only around corners, or only in the middle of the night. To me thats plain ridiculous. I unashamedly admit to RLJ'ing. I do it mostly for self-preservation. If a cop stops me for it, I'll tell them the same thing. Personal Safety > The Law.

dondare

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

This appears to have descended into yet another RLJer thread. Zzzzz
However:
The original question is a valid one, why not turn left on red ? IF safe to do so. This is not just for cyclists but all traffic.
Many places in europe have a flashing amber right filter light, which allows for a right turn (if safe to do so) even if the traffic lights are red, similarly the US in most places right turn on red (if safe to do so) is the norm.

In this country it's illegal. Legality and safety aside, it is also antisocial and this cannot be excused.

dondare

Rich158 wrote:

I'm only too painfully aware of uninsured motorists, havng had one car completely written off by an uninsured drunk driver whilst parked outside my house, and having exactly the same thing happen six months later, only this time the car was damaged noy written off. It came as no surprise that both cars were reported stolen the next morning.

They reported that their car that they were not insured to drive had been stolen?

Some time ago a friend of mine was knocked off his bike and injured by a speeding motorist. The driver of the car behind saw the number plate and reported it. The police visited the owner of the car and found it parked outside his house with damage consistant with the accident.
The owner then reported the car as having been stolen - and then returned. The police accepted this story.

DavidTQ

chromehoof wrote:

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

This appears to have descended into yet another RLJer thread. Zzzzz

It seemed a natural progression though. I can't get over how some people are trying to stigmatise those who admit to RLJ'ing. People are posting, and qualifying or justifying their RLJ'ing by saying its only around corners, or only in the middle of the night. To me thats plain ridiculous. I unashamedly admit to RLJ'ing. I do it mostly for self-preservation. If a cop stops me for it, I'll tell them the same thing. Personal Safety > The Law.

For me personal safety works within the law Im a competent enough cyclist to deal with traffic whilst keeping within the law... I think perhaps we need more training offered for those who feel breaking the law is necesary for safety.

My views are coloured by the fact that every single example Ive ever seen of red light jumping has been people who just cant be arsed to wait a minute. Never once have I ever seen a Red light jumping that was safer than my law abiding stance. Of course Ive also never seen a red light jumper who got THAT much of a time advantage from it either, Ive normally always caught up with them without trying...

simple_salmon

If a driver feels safer speeding, driving whilst under the influence, or on a mobile phone - in his opinion - does that make the action justifiable?

chromehoof

DavidTQ wrote:

chromehoof wrote:

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

This appears to have descended into yet another RLJer thread. Zzzzz

It seemed a natural progression though. I can't get over how some people are trying to stigmatise those who admit to RLJ'ing. People are posting, and qualifying or justifying their RLJ'ing by saying its only around corners, or only in the middle of the night. To me thats plain ridiculous. I unashamedly admit to RLJ'ing. I do it mostly for self-preservation. If a cop stops me for it, I'll tell them the same thing. Personal Safety > The Law.

For me personal safety works within the law Im a competent enough cyclist to deal with traffic whilst keeping within the law... I think perhaps we need more training offered for those who feel breaking the law is necesary for safety.

My views are coloured by the fact that every single example Ive ever seen of red light jumping has been people who just cant be arsed to wait a minute. Never once have I ever seen a Red light jumping that was safer than my law abiding stance. Of course Ive also never seen a red light jumper who got THAT much of a time advantage from it either, Ive normally always caught up with them without trying...

The junction of Pearse St on to Tara St (Dublin). The road becomes a 4-lane thoroughfare without a cycle lane. At the end of the strectch of road, you need to have taken a position in lane, depending on where you intend to go next. You'll approach the junction on the extreme left (as thats where the cycle/bus lane is). At the end of the road I need to be on the extreme right (4 lanes across). Not easy to negotiate with lots of cars in your way. Take a couple of seconds on them by jumping the lights, then problem solved.

Maybe the training can be extended to our traffic planners. The above example is one frequently used by cycling lobby groups here in Ireland. And there are several cases like the one I described.

CiB

What a pious bunch of self-important narks there are on here. Remember that old post-feminist ironic joke? If a man opens his mouth to voice an opinion and a woman isn't close enough to hear him, is he still wrong? That's what we've got going on here now

Regardless of the context, or the judgement call that a grown cyclist can make, there's a chorus of Peter Perfects all shouting 'no no never break the law, any law, never'.

Guess what. I break the law, quite often. There are only two that I can think of though; speeding, but only on motorways where I'll happily do over 70, sometimes I've been known to do 80. I do it with full attention of what's going on around me, with no fog lights, observing correct lane usage, all that stuff. And even at 80 I'm not passing everything in sight. It's a law, but it's broken widely and it doesn't matter. It's a known fact that you won't get touched by the law for doing up to 80 on a motorway.

The other one? Treating red lights in the middle of nowhere or at quiet junctions, at roads that I know, as Give Ways.

So yeah, I choose which laws to obey, and which don’t matter. I’ve got these two so far – there might be others but I can’t think of any at the mo.

These aren't crimes, these are rule transgressions. Crimes is people being mugged, houses burgled, murder, stabbings, Take That's latest record. Sidling up to a red light and hoping that some old boy farmer isn't watching through his noculars from over the fields isn't a crime. Get a grip.

From my experience drivers who bang on about RLJers, cyclists having no insurance, cyclists who don't get out of the way and all that, these are motorists who wouldn't accept cycling as a positive and good thing even if they discovered that we all donate £50 a day to Cancer Research every time we go out on our bikes.

Like I said tho, it's probably different out here in the sticks, where at least we can see the difference between me on a carbon bike creeping though a red light at walking pace if it's safe so to do, and a 2½ ton car going through a red light.

simple_salmon

Then I hope that no family member or friend of yours is ever killed or injured by someone who thought that only some laws were worth abiding by.

Rich158

dondare wrote:

Rich158 wrote:

I'm only too painfully aware of uninsured motorists, havng had one car completely written off by an uninsured drunk driver whilst parked outside my house, and having exactly the same thing happen six months later, only this time the car was damaged noy written off. It came as no surprise that both cars were reported stolen the next morning.

They reported that their car that they were not insured to drive had been stolen?

Some time ago a friend of mine was knocked off his bike and injured by a speeding motorist. The driver of the car behind saw the number plate and reported it. The police visited the owner of the car and found it parked outside his house with damage consistant with the accident.
The owner then reported the car as having been stolen - and then returned. The police accepted this story.

The police will accept anything. When my car was written off the keys were left in the ingition, together with the owners personal affects. Guess what, he said the keys were stolen out of his pocket and the thieves then checked every car in the car park were it was parked! When I expressed my incredulity to the officer who came to see me the next morning I was told that I should not contact the owner as he was a victim too :evil: :evil: :evil: On both occasions the fact that an uninsured car was on the road was irrelevant to the police and no action taken. It doesn't take a genius to realise that you can get pissed, crash your car, report it stolen and get away scott free :twisted:

Rant over, everyone else can get back on topic now

CiB

If anyone I know were to be killed by someone doing what I do, creeping round a red light as if it's a Give Way, I'd be amazed.

The motorway network survives quite happily with traffic flowing at >70, <=80. It happens; live with it. Accidents are not caused by speed alone, otherwise our m/ways would be scenes of endless carnage, and they're not.

Still can't think of any other laws that I choose to ignore. I've nearly been involved in a fight for ticking some oik off for throwing litter; will that do?

simple_salmon

The point I made was not that you were putting someone's life in danger but that the same argument may be applied by someone else choosing to ignore laws they don't like that may have more serious consequences.

I would also argue that there are scenes of carnage including death on our motorways every single day - many of which will have been caused by people choosing to break a law.

But hey ho - you have your morals and I have mine.

Eau Rouge

Headhuunter wrote:

But bikes are not cars. In fact we have more in common with pedestrians than motorised traffic. quote]

Oh god no, please.....no!

You might do, I don't. On my bike I'm just as much part of traffic as I am in my car, and expect to be treated as such. "Multi-use paths" wind me up more than anything in the world of cycling. I am not a pedestrian!

As a car driver, I speed as well as breaking and bending a host of other laws, but I would no more jump a red light than I would drive down the wrong side of a motorway. This, it seems, is true of the majority of drivers. To then see a cyclists actually do just that, well, it's like seeing then drive down the wrong side of a motorway, completely irresponsible and dangerous, even if the cyclists can see it isn't.

ChrisInBicester - sounds like your issue isn't jumping red lights per se, but the existence of the lights themselves. Is there any good reason for the lights in your area on these quiet junctions that sound like they don't actually need lights, to even be there? Has the council really not heard of temporary traffic lights? Would you have the same attitude on a junction that actually did need the lights I wonder?

Oddballcp

chromehoof wrote:

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

This appears to have descended into yet another RLJer thread. Zzzzz

It seemed a natural progression though. I can't get over how some people are trying to stigmatise those who admit to RLJ'ing. People are posting, and qualifying or justifying their RLJ'ing by saying its only around corners, or only in the middle of the night. To me thats plain ridiculous. I unashamedly admit to RLJ'ing. I do it mostly for self-preservation. If a cop stops me for it, I'll tell them the same thing. Personal Safety > The Law.

Quite right, I RLJ for exactly the same reason; self preservation. Whenever a cyclist stops at a red light they risk falling into a black hole, being abducted by aliens, or some other terrible fate and if a cop asks me why I don't stop at reds that is what I'll tell him; it's my defence against alien abduction. After all, the police will accept anything. And it's 100% true.

biondino

How come I can't remember ever having felt unsafe stopping at a red light?

And here's the great thing to all you people who are unnaturally scared of setting off when the light goes green: PRIMARY POSITION. (and if all else fails and you're boxed in or whatever, then hell, you might have to hang back for a while. It won't, contrary to apparent opinion, kill you)

roger_merriman

lost_in_thought wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

You can do this in the states!

You can also do it in some parts of Australia - the ACT for example.

However, in the UK it's breaking the law... and as the cyclist who berated the OP quite rightly says, it ain't good far any of us.

for real fun try melbourne where to turn right, you do a left hook...ie wait in the left of the box until you can turn.