The world is your garage ...

pdstsp

I think you have to realise that tax payers money is not unlimited. Fine - strive for a perfect world where everyhting is properly funded and there's no shortage of equipment and the third world is an economic miracle and grand macro-economic schemes bring thousnad out of poverty every day. But then look around and there are, in reality, gaps in funding, and african countries where the economies are a joke.
Some people see these problems and blithely say its a state problem, raise taxes, invest in the Congo etc etc, others think that by raising funds and awarenes they can make a difference, abeit at a local and individual level in most cases.
I agree that "charadee" for charities sake is not the way forward but when good people put time, effort and money into trying to help then they should not be derided.

It would be interesting to see what macro-economic solution to the problems of, say, the Congo, anyone can come up with. Somebody name a company or bank who will invest millions in such a country in its present state? So - if capitalism won't invest, the state is run by thugs on the take, the UN has taken an ineffectual stance and there is no infrastructure left, who can help on a day to day basis? Invade for regime change a la Iraq? Rely on small scale charity work? Its a problem so deep rooted that single line answers do not even begin to touch the surface.

I also think that, as boybiker says, you should ask the difficult question about funding. Unfortunately it is rare for a political party to openly state that they will raise taxes to pay for all the things that should be state funded and then win an election. Too many greedy people. But please don't knock those who try to make a difference, often in a selfless way, they deserve our respect.

dondare

Africa's situation is currently the result of Government policies; both theirs and those of richer nations. Africa has immense natural wealth and resources which could make it prosperous but neither their rulers or ours will allow that to happen. Well-meaning charities tend to make this intolerable situation tolerable, and therefore help to maintain it.
Foriegn aid can also destroy local economies.

sloboy

robthehungrymonkey wrote:

The only thing China is concerned about is progression. They ruling political party doesn't have to pander to votes, it does what is best for the country as a whole and doesn't have to do what it thinks will win votes. Poverty is decreasing by the day, and generally the chinese are happy and full of hope, throughout the country, even those not so well off.

It's often said that a benign dictatorship is the most efficient form of government. Who's to determine whether a particular regime is benign or not is another question of course.

It's a sad reflection on something (education ? modern ethics ?) that a democracy isn't seen as a good way of acting. That tax rise thing - a political party is quite free to say "we'll squeeze the rich until the pips squeak" (as of course Denis Healey famously did), but such a policy may incur resistance at the ballot box !

unclemalc

boybiker wrote:

Yeah, er no sorry I am afraid that any spare cash is going to be spent on me rather than buying bikes to teach Africans about a disease which everyone in the entire world has known about for the past 30 years.It seems that there have been any number of schemes trying to do the same thing without any measurable results.

I am firmly of the belief that Africa has been left to suffer on purpose. Easy way to keep down a population expansion problem - let AIDS/HIV/ tribal warfare/ civil warfare do the job 'naturally'.
This means that when the rest of the world, particularly Europe, is in serious trouble with GW and its effects upon food production, it doesn't have to worry about population migration from Africa.
There. I've said it.

cee

cyclingtaz wrote:

what about those of us who can barely afford to heat our houses and put food on the table let alone give money away to charityeven though we live in a developed country

says the person clearly on the breadline...what with access to a computer and the internet...and an interest in bicycles for leisure....hardly starving are you?

BB makes a subtle point quite harshly.....just tipping money into a pot doesn't help, when such a small fraction of that money is actually spent on the people. I saw some figures a while back about how much of a £1 donation to oxfam is actually taken up in the admin costs of oxfam itself....can't remember the figures, but I was surprised that there was so little left for the cause the donation was intended...never mind what gets creamed off on hte africa side by the controllers of the various regions.

although in fairness calling someone an a-hole directly probably wasn't your finest moment....can't we just all get along and realise that we won't always agree?

synchronicity

I recently read small is beautiful by E.F. Schumacher... he proposes that it's impossible to bring the 3rd world directly into the 1st. His arguments are based on simple assumptions, but they're quite convincing. I highly recommend that book.

I totally agree with things like giving them bikes and what he calls other "intermediate technology".

If I got the point of the later chapters, it's that the West is convinced that doing things by western standards is not necessarily good for them (contrary to what we normally try and do). For instance, if you use high-technology tools to build some infrastructure, while that emplys a few highly-productive workers, most of the population sits bone idle.
But if you contract them to do it with hand tools, maybe it's not so efficient for each worker, but you have a greater total capacity for work (because the same money can go towards more resources). You also teach them the power to change themselves (but slowly).

It's not the only message of the book, but I think it's appropriate to this discussion.

cyclingtaz

cee
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2008 14:04 Post subject:
cyclingtaz wrote:
what about those of us who can barely afford to heat our houses and put food on the table let alone give money away to charityeven though we live in a developed country
says the person clearly on the breadline...what with access to a computer and the internet...and an interest in bicycles for leisure....hardly starving are you?

yes i have access to a computer and the internet at work. we cant afford computer at home and yes i have had an interest in cycling since i was a boy though i only have a very old 80's racer and i prefer to watch and read about racing and time trialing than any other sport i would love to be able to afford to buy a newer bike and take up the sport but i cant afford to, whats wrong with that ? would you think differently if i was interested in more mainstream sport like football and went to the pub every week i work very hard to feed my children and bring them up properly and feel that people like yourself making comments like you did look down on people like myself for wanting to do the right thing. i just feel that with the current economic climate that we should think more about the minimum wage earning families in this country as there are people out there that cant afford to heat there homes and put proper food on the table