what do you think of this?

feel
feel Posts: 800
edited November 2008 in Road beginners
BIKE

never seen anything like it before - what do you think of the belt and shimano hub? and the brakes?
Where would it be in gearing terms ? How do you think it would do as a winter bike with occasional light touring thrown in during the summer?

Shame it doesn't quote a weight - suspect it could be light or are those brakes and hubs heavy?

any opinions welcome.
We are born with the dead:
See, they return, and bring us with them.

Comments

  • Mister W
    Mister W Posts: 791
    I read Mike Burrows' book on bike design recently and he had figures for relative power losses between chain drive and belt drive. Belt drive was far less efficient. I guess the belt may last longer and in theory it's cleaner, although when it's been ridden through a couple of weeks of winter road muck I expect it may not be quite so clean. The only real advantage I can see is that it should be low maintenance.
  • meagain
    meagain Posts: 2,331
    Altho' I wouldn't be swayed by the belt drivet, excellent all weather bike. I'd go for a Carrera Subway 8 instead - lot cheaper, much the same benefits.
    d.j.
    "Cancel my subscription to the resurrection."
  • meagain
    meagain Posts: 2,331
    And weight - yes, with internal gears and brakes, probably not much shy of 30lbs?
    d.j.
    "Cancel my subscription to the resurrection."
  • robthehungrymonkey
    robthehungrymonkey Posts: 616
    Mister W wrote:
    I read Mike Burrows' book on bike design recently and he had figures for relative power losses between chain drive and belt drive. Belt drive was far less efficient. I guess the belt may last longer and in theory it's cleaner, although when it's been ridden through a couple of weeks of winter road muck I expect it may not be quite so clean. The only real advantage I can see is that it should be low maintenance.

    Can you elaborate as to why a belt driven bike is less efficient?

    Surely it comes down to the material used in the belt?

    When i first saw this ( i think on the front page of this site) they mentioned that some of the R&D had been done on cross race bikes, so it can't be that bad. Well, i think that's what it said...
    http://www.KOWONO.com - Design-Led home furniture and accessories.
  • ride_whenever
    ride_whenever Posts: 13,279
    read the fatcyclist blog, fatty tried one a while back (a belt drive ss bike) and he said it rode like a chain, and has similar maintenance issues IIRC, he was very apathetic towards it despite being really excited beforehand.
    Neeermad
    Carbon 456
    456 lefty
    Pompino
    White Inbred
  • Mister W
    Mister W Posts: 791
    Sorry, I can't remember why a belt has less power loss than a chain. I think it might have been something to do with the force required to deform the belt round the sprockets.
  • robthehungrymonkey
    robthehungrymonkey Posts: 616
    Mister W wrote:
    Sorry, I can't remember why a belt has less power loss than a chain. I think it might have been something to do with the force required to deform the belt round the sprockets.

    Interesting. I'm sure the technology will come where they can manufacture a belt that is felxible yet will not stretch or deform under power.
    http://www.KOWONO.com - Design-Led home furniture and accessories.
  • Sea_Green_Incorruptible
    Sea_Green_Incorruptible Posts: 431
    Also, I could never buy a bike advertised as an 'Urban Assault Vehicle'. I mean... FFS. What does that even mean? It rubs me up the wrong way on just about every level you can imagine.

    This is also the reason I will NEVER shop at Snow and Rock under any circumstances.
  • feel
    feel Posts: 800
    robthehungrymonkey wrote:
    Mister W wrote:
    Sorry, I can't remember why a belt has less power loss than a chain. I think it might have been something to do with the force required to deform the belt round the sprockets.

    Interesting. I'm sure the technology will come where they can manufacture a belt that is felxible yet will not stretch or deform under power.

    I suspect the technology is already here - Harley Davidson have been using belts for their final drive for years. Whether the belt on the trek is any good remains to be seen. Mind having got home tonight to discover that my cycle clip had not done its job and i had an oil stain on my trouser leg does make it more appealing. I know it will get covered with road crap, but i suspect it would still be easier to clean off.

    As far as the advertising goes i couldn't care how they try to market it. Although the colour could be a little more interesting

    Anyone any experience of roller brakes?
    We are born with the dead:
    See, they return, and bring us with them.
  • balthazar
    balthazar Posts: 1,565
    feel wrote:
    robthehungrymonkey wrote:

    I suspect the technology is already here - Harley Davidson have been using belts for their final drive for years.

    Cars have used belts in place of chains for camshaft timing for years too: combustion engines have lots of power and can afford minimal losses. Cycle transmission is more sensitive, given the paucity of power available. My guess is that an enclosed chain - running in an old fashioned chainguard - is the best solution to the problems which led to this offering. Belt drives look lovely on a designer's desktop, though.
  • gkerr4
    gkerr4 Posts: 3,408
    feel wrote:
    robthehungrymonkey wrote:
    Mister W wrote:
    Sorry, I can't remember why a belt has less power loss than a chain. I think it might have been something to do with the force required to deform the belt round the sprockets.

    Interesting. I'm sure the technology will come where they can manufacture a belt that is felxible yet will not stretch or deform under power.

    I suspect the technology is already here - Harley Davidson have been using belts for their final drive for years. Whether the belt on the trek is any good remains to be seen. Mind having got home tonight to discover that my cycle clip had not done its job and i had an oil stain on my trouser leg does make it more appealing. I know it will get covered with road crap, but i suspect it would still be easier to clean off.

    As far as the advertising goes i couldn't care how they try to market it. Although the colour could be a little more interesting

    Anyone any experience of roller brakes?

    harley davidson arent exactly a good example of a 'technology led' company thought - their bikes are as 'advanced' as 1940's farm machinery

    (V-Rod excluded - but the main range = junk)'
  • feel
    feel Posts: 800
    gkerr4 wrote:
    feel wrote:

    harley davidson arent exactly a good example of a 'technology led' company thought - their bikes are as 'advanced' as 1940's farm machinery

    (V-Rod excluded - but the main range = junk)'

    Agree about the technology led in general, but the belts are transmitting huge torques to shift their two ton bikes and dealing with vibration that can shake your teeth out, so they at least must be good enough to move a hybrid effectively. From what i have read they (trek) are using belts with carbon fibre in them that have been developed for snowmobiles etc. They are quieter and lighter than chains and will have a life of at least double the chain, and with no maintenance. Mind i wonder what the replacement price of the belt will be and how easy it will be to remove the back wheel for p*ncture repair?
    We are born with the dead:
    See, they return, and bring us with them.
  • robthehungrymonkey
    robthehungrymonkey Posts: 616
    feel wrote:
    Mind i wonder what the replacement price of the belt will be and how easy it will be to remove the back wheel for p*ncture repair?

    The same as a fixed/ss?
    http://www.KOWONO.com - Design-Led home furniture and accessories.
  • meagain
    meagain Posts: 2,331
    But a Harley ain't built for speed (nor does it matter much how many horses lost between the engine and "at the back wheel").
    Don't see belts on Moto GP bikes. Nor on any comp machines as far as I know. Only a few lightweights have tried belts in recent years - the GPZ 305 wasn't a huge success. Enclosed chain the ideal for all-weather use surely.
    d.j.
    "Cancel my subscription to the resurrection."
  • ror_b211
    ror_b211 Posts: 65
    Wow, that is cool. I've never heard of Shimano Alfine shifters.
  • feel
    feel Posts: 800
    meagain wrote:
    Enclosed chain the ideal for all-weather use surely.

    As on the old MZ 250 and on one some of the old Honda's - brilliant for reducing chain maintenance and wear but on a pushbike i think the weight penalty makes it less than ideal.
    We are born with the dead:
    See, they return, and bring us with them.
  • feel
    feel Posts: 800
    robthehungrymonkey wrote:
    feel wrote:
    Mind i wonder what the replacement price of the belt will be and how easy it will be to remove the back wheel for p*ncture repair?

    The same as a fixed/ss?


    Quite probably but how much do they cost and how easy is it to remove the back wheel on the single speed versions? Suspect there will be no quick release and quite a few allen bolts to undo.
    We are born with the dead:
    See, they return, and bring us with them.
  • balthazar
    balthazar Posts: 1,565
    meagain wrote:
    Don't see belts on Moto GP bikes. Nor on any comp machines as far as I know.

    In principle we agree - as our responses attest - but I don't see that racing motorcycles have any more bearing than old fashioned touring motorcycles on how best to design a commuting bicycle. They are both as remote to the matter at hand as the cam belt, which I cited to make that point.

    There are good reasons for retaining bicycle chains in place of current theoretical alternatives. Something preferable may yet be designed, but it will be better on its own merits, not by analogy with other vehicles.
  • balthazar
    balthazar Posts: 1,565
    feel wrote:
    We are born with the dead:
    See, they return, and bring us with them.

    I was going to say, - Is that Eliot? - but then I checked, and of course it is. Sounds biblical. I don't know your motivation for signing off your comments with the quote, but thanks for making me pause for thought.
  • meagain
    meagain Posts: 2,331
    "As on the old MZ 250...."

    Indeed - made my Supa 5 (!) an ideal all-weather, all-year, Rally bike in the late '70s!
    d.j.
    "Cancel my subscription to the resurrection."
  • feel
    feel Posts: 800
    edited November 2008
    balthazar wrote:

    I was going to say, - Is that Eliot? - but then I checked, and of course it is. Sounds biblical. I don't know your motivation for signing off your comments with the quote, but thanks for making me pause for thought.

    pausing for thought was my exact motivation - as that was the effect on me when i read it.

    can i ask do you use "balthazar" on other forums?
    We are born with the dead:
    See, they return, and bring us with them.
  • feel
    feel Posts: 800
    meagain wrote:
    "As on the old MZ 250...."

    Indeed - made my Supa 5 (!) an ideal all-weather, all-year, Rally bike in the late '70s!
    you must have been that guy who i leant forward to the headlamp switch to flash :lol:

    don't tell me you also had a T120 or a guzzi - that would be spooky :shock:
    We are born with the dead:
    See, they return, and bring us with them.
  • balthazar
    balthazar Posts: 1,565
    feel wrote:

    pausing for thought was my exact motivation - as that was the effect on me when i read it.

    can i ask do you use "balthazar" on other forums?

    I don't think so. Balthazar has been an avatar name for me for a while, but I don't contribute to many forums. I may have done a few years ago, but nothing recently. I use the name in mind of the Beastly Beatitudes of Balthazar B:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beastly-Beatitu ... 0140030565

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