Carbon fibre who was the first....

DavMartinR

To use carbon fibre in the peleton? Team and rider.

Was it LeMond? He was inventive for his time?

Should the UCI lower the weight of the bikes from 6.8Kg? I mean all manufacturers build lighter bikes than 6.8Kg these days.

Was it Cannondale that kitting out one of the teams in prison inmate kit to try and get the UCI to lower the weight of the bikes?

OffTheBackAdam

I'm sure there's been a thread on this topic before, but I can't remember the results.
As for the UCI's limitations on minimum weight, it's there for both safety & cost reasons, one would assume.
Just because a bike weighing less than 6.8Kg can be built, why should it be used?

Garry H

I remember reading that Robert Millar had a "special" one for mountain stages, but can't recall which year he started using it. If you're right about Lemond, then it may have been as late as when RM was with Z. Haven't Look been making them for donkeys, years that is, not the horse typ mammal

Chip \'oyler

Didn't Alan make some frames with carbon tubes bonded to Alloy lugs in the eighties?

Lovely looking frames and very popular with CX riders

Echo et les Boniments

Robert Millar was using his "special" carbon fibre bike as early as 1985 -they mention it in that famous feature article about him in The Face.

Look manufactured their first carbon frame for the French market in 1986.

Croxted Avenger

I think carbon frames go back even further than the mid 80s - weren't assos working on a carbon TT bike in the late 70s when they decided to make the 1st lycra shorts?

http://www.assos.com/#/heritage/

skylark

There was a guy riding with us on a pretty full carbon frame. It weighed the worst, far more than a steel frame. Fairly sure it was early 80's retro.

Carbon shells were fairly common in rally cars even during the mid 80;s.

Why should bike weight be lowered? I for one think it should be increased.

Tom Butcher

I've a book somewhere that covers one of the TdFs of the 70s - I'm almost certain it mentions one of the riders having a carbon bike in that - talking early to mid 70s. It might be that it's some other ununusual material like titanium though - been a while since I read it.

DavMartinR

skylark wrote:

There was a guy riding with us on a pretty full carbon frame. It weighed the worst, far more than a steel frame. Fairly sure it was early 80's retro.

Carbon shells were fairly common in rally cars even during the mid 80;s.

Why should bike weight be lowered? I for one think it should be increased.

Maybe you right they should increase the weight on the bikes. Would it create a more even playing field?Would it give more riders a chance on the climbs and in the time trials?

dave_1

IMO the first carbon fibre frames were raced on back in 1987 by what was then Helvetia and Toshiba teams...they were Look Carbons , TVT 92s? Pre 87 I would bet there was not one team on carbon main frame. Hinault and Lemond's 86 TDF bikes looks like a half way...ssilve/grey aliminium frame set with the butting like the Carbon frames of 87.

DavidBelcher

Dave_1 wrote:

IMO the first carbon fibre frames were raced on back in 1987 by what was then Helvetia and Toshiba teams...they were Look Carbons , TVT 92s? Pre 87 I would bet there was not one team on carbon main frame. Hinault and Lemond's 86 TDF bikes looks like a half way...ssilve/grey aliminium frame set with the butting like the Carbon frames of 87.

Vitus Carbones also appeared around the same time as the TVTs and Looks; I think Luis Herrera rode one in the late '80s. There had been earlier attempts at carbon frames (Eclipse from France, Exxon Graftek from the States), but they suffered from poor bonding and tended to fail around the lug areas.

David

Chip \'oyler

Just found this on this website (http://www.multimit.com/fkm/alan/index.shtml)

"Unlike many producers, Alan do all of their own design and much of their production in Europe, having accumulated great experience over the years - Ludovic established the company in 1972 by importing airframe bonding technology and airframe-grade aluminium alloys into the world of cycles with the then-futuristic looking Alan Record frames. These frames had polished, smooth lugs and anodised tubes, making them unlike any other frame on the market in both performance and looks.

In cyclo-cross and on the road, Alan frames won many important victories, especially at home in the mountains on the road, and in the rough world of cyclo-cross where the slightly more compliant ride of these early aluminium frames was appreciated by the riders, as was the light weight.

Not content to rest on this success, though, Ludovic launched the first commercially available carbon fibre frames on the world in 1976. Made using broadly similar processes to the alu frames, the Record Carbonio used Toray Carbon woven tubes, bonded with alloy lugs and a special process to prevent galvanic corrosion at the joint, which many producers even today omit, compromising the lifespan of their product. "

mercsport

ALAN : yes I'll buy that .

A good thread in that I was Irritated enough at not knowing the answer - after all I was around at the time - that I spent time upon my paper pile , Wiki and Google to still not find a proper answer .

When I was riding a flexing bonded al' Vitus I always wondered how the Alan was to ride and admired them . And , I seem to remember their first carbon frames too as being good to look at . I don't recall a carbon Vitus though . That one passed me by . :?

Chip \'oyler

mercsport wrote:

ALAN : yes I'll buy that .

A good thread in that I was Irritated enough at not knowing the answer - after all I was around at the time - that I spent time upon my paper pile , Wiki and Google to still not find a proper answer .

When I was riding a flexing bonded al' Vitus I always wondered how the Alan was to ride and admired them . And , I seem to remember their first carbon frames too as being good to look at . I don't recall a carbon Vitus though . That one passed me by . :?

The Alan's I remember as a kid in the eighties seemed futuristic. I remember seeing a carbon one too - lovely looking bikes. It's funny how we all comment on here about bonded lugged Colnago's etc but forget it's old technology

Monty Dog

I had an Alan Record Carbonio - they were making them up until a few years ago - it wasn't the stiffest frame in the world and the aluminium fork was horrible - harsh and flexy at the same time! Vitus did the Carbon 8 frame and it was also available branded Peugeot AFAIK. The first carbon Colnagos were is fact rebadged Alans, likewise for Guerciottis too. The Alan, Look, TVT and Vitus/Peugeot all appeared at about the same time - late 1980s. Craig Calfee in the US has been making carbon frames since 1988 too - and I think it was a rebadged Calfee that LeMond rode for Z-Peugeot in 1990. The Vitus used to suffer from horrible galvanic corrosion due to unanodised aluminium lugs - the joints would come unstuck and split the carbon tubes.

dave_1

Monty Dog wrote:

I had an Alan Record Carbonio - they were making them up until a few years ago - it wasn't the stiffest frame in the world and the aluminium fork was horrible - harsh and flexy at the same time! Vitus did the Carbon 8 frame and it was also available branded Peugeot AFAIK. The first carbon Colnagos were is fact rebadged Alans, likewise for Guerciottis too. The Alan, Look, TVT and Vitus/Peugeot all appeared at about the same time - late 1980s. Craig Calfee in the US has been making carbon frames since 1988 too - and I think it was a rebadged Calfee that LeMond rode for Z-Peugeot in 1990. The Vitus used to suffer from horrible galvanic corrosion due to unanodised aluminium lugs - the joints would come unstuck and split the carbon tubes.

Alan carbon were not around pre Look..at least as pro team issue-maybe club level :?

MO Lemond was on a TVT in 1990 badged as a Lemond, identical butting to my Look Carbon and then my TVT 92-replaced the look-...Ron Kithcining did cause the Look carbon broke apart at bottom bracket.

Lemond was , in 1989, on a TVT rebadged as a Bottechia-but not his TT frame-that was a USA made frame I think, and his 1990 TDF low profile was a carbon like a TVT with slope down tube, PDM used it too in 1990. IMO there were NO carbon frames-team issue in pro peleton as team issue or in carbon appearance-black/grey woven fabric as tubing pre JF Bernard 1987 Mont Ventoux. Toshiba was first in 87 on Carbon andWeinman LA Suisse on TVT in 1988, Reynolds (Delgado) in 88...craig calfee?

PDM were on Concorde till 89 and Kelly with KAs ona non carbon vitus as were Cafe De columbia up to 88

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25520277@N03/sets/

Chip \'oyler

I've just realised the post was about the first Carbon frames in the peloton

However I'm sure you'll appreciate the beauty of an Alan Record Carbonio

http://velospace.org/node/5380

cougie

Didnt kelly ride an alan too ? Lemond def had a carbon fibre in the year that riis won.

Stukie

Robert Millar and the Peugeot team were riding carbon fibre bikes with alu lugs in the 1984 Tour. You can see the carbon bikes with Jubillee clipped water bottles on the frontpage here. http://www.robertmillar.net/

dave_1

Stukie wrote:

Robert Millar and the Peugeot team were riding carbon fibre bikes with alu lugs in the 1984 Tour. You can see the carbon bikes with Jubillee clipped water bottles on the frontpage here. http://www.robertmillar.net/

IMO Millar was on alloy tubing, not Carbon in 84-86 at Peugeot...but if not, then why was everyone else 3 year later in getting onto carbon given the weight saving? I very much doubt carbob frames were at the 84 TDF...but prove me wrong

mercsport

I hope I'm proved wrong ( as I'd really like to know the answer ) but I feel Dave_1 has a point . I 'd always thought Robert Millar , Sean Kelly and others had some of their best times upon a duralumin tubed , bonded lug , Vitus . Regardless of the name on the downtube .

emadden

When I was young kid back in the summer of 1988 I remember being at a bike race in Cork and seeing a crashed VITUS carbon... It was covered in KAS decals, so it was probably an ex-Kelly bike that a Carrick fan had picked up...(hence Kelly would have owned in during the 87 season). The head tube had come away from the frame and the tubes were broken open in a horrific splintered fashion... The image which stuck in the mind was the blood splashed all over the frame....
As a young kid at the time I wondered why anybody would ride carbon !


Now... 20 years later I ride a Pinarello Prince :P :P :P :P

LangerDan

I'm not sure that the early carbon frames offered much of a weight advantage. In the late 80's a Dublin bike shop had a Peugeot carbon frame for sale - it wasn't particularly light compared to the conventional Vitus.
AFAIK, you could get the Peugeot / Vitus frame in two options - 3 carbon tube (top, seat,down) with the balance in aluminium or you could splash out on a 7 tube frame, with the stays in carbon. All the carbon tubes were bonded to alloy lugs.

Kelly used to go through many Vitus frames in a season. I think that in the classics season, he's spend no more than a month on a frame and then sell them on. I think there was suspicion that the bonding would become more suspect after a thrashing in .Flanders or Roubaix

dave_1

emadden wrote:

When I was young kid back in the summer of 1988 I remember being at a bike race in Cork and seeing a crashed VITUS carbon... It was covered in KAS decals, so it was probably an ex-Kelly bike that a Carrick fan had picked up...(hence Kelly would have owned in during the 87 season). The head tube had come away from the frame and the tubes were broken open in a horrific splintered fashion... The image which stuck in the mind was the blood splashed all over the frame....
As a young kid at the time I wondered why anybody would ride carbon !


Now... 20 years later I ride a Pinarello Prince :P :P :P :P

Was Lucho Herrera on a carbon main frame or were Vitus just avoiding the whole frame being silver? http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders ... educed.jpg

I thought the latter...but I could well be wrong-but doesn't explain why lots were riding heavy steal frames in 1988,89 and 1990...must not have been as obsessed as I thought by bikes at 17. Cafe de Columbia and Kas were on the same frames in 87, 88- from Vitus. Kelly has a TT low prof from 86 that is also black main tubes which would date carbon to 86......this was the colour not the fabric??

Claimed to be Herrera's 84 TDF frame...of what material was this frame? Vitus 979? http://www.rebolledocycles.com/blog/wp- ... -front.jpg

Monty Dog

I was playing around with bonded carbon tube / alloy lug construction in 1989 / 1990, not for bike frames, but artificial limbs and it was new technology, so as Dave says, I think the first prototypes were only made in 87/88 with the availability of suitable carbon tubes. The big problem that everybody found out was galvanic corrosion between the bare aluminium and the carbon - water and salt caused a chemical reaction that weakened the joint - often catastrophically. The Vitus/Peugeot frames of the period were notorious for this problem - luckily the Alans because of their joint construction were less prone. Frame weights were still in the region of 1500g - heavy by todays standards, but many of the steel frames of that period were quite hefty - many were chrome plated and then painted - nice to look at, but no lightweight.

emadden

Dave_1 wrote:

Was Lucho Herrera on a carbon main frame or were Vitus just avoiding the whole frame being silver? http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders ... educed.jpg

Hard to tell from that pic... Looks like a VITUS 979 to me :roll: :idea: :?: :?: :?:

dave_1

emadden wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Was Lucho Herrera on a carbon main frame or were Vitus just avoiding the whole frame being silver? http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders ... educed.jpg

Hard to tell from that pic... Looks like a VITUS 979 to me :roll: :idea: :?: :?: :?:

Me too...they did them in a few different colours,red as well and Kelly was in yellow-gold colours at Kas?

Chip \'oyler

Monty Dog wrote:

I was playing around with bonded carbon tube / alloy lug construction in 1989 / 1990, not for bike frames, but artificial limbs and it was new technology, so as Dave says, I think the first prototypes were only made in 87/88 with the availability of suitable carbon tubes. The big problem that everybody found out was galvanic corrosion between the bare aluminium and the carbon - water and salt caused a chemical reaction that weakened the joint - often catastrophically. The Vitus/Peugeot frames of the period were notorious for this problem - luckily the Alans because of their joint construction were less prone. Frame weights were still in the region of 1500g - heavy by todays standards, but many of the steel frames of that period were quite hefty - many were chrome plated and then painted - nice to look at, but no lightweight.

Not according to my previous post

Not content to rest on this success, though, Ludovic launched the first commercially available carbon fibre frames on the world in 1976. Made using broadly similar processes to the alu frames, the Record Carbonio used Toray Carbon woven tubes, bonded with alloy lugs and a special process to prevent galvanic corrosion at the joint, which many producers even today omit, compromising the lifespan of their product.

I've heard Robert Millar sometimes visits this site - perhaps he could shed some light?

LangerDan

Dave_1 wrote:

Was Lucho Herrera on a carbon main frame or were Vitus just avoiding the whole frame being silver? http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders ... educed.jpg

I thought the latter...but I could well be wrong-but doesn't explain why lots were riding heavy steal frames in 1988,89 and 1990...must not have been as obsessed as I thought by bikes at 17. Cafe de Columbia and Kas were on the same frames in 87, 88- from Vitus. Kelly has a TT low prof from 86 that is also black main tubes which would date carbon to 86......this was the colour not the fabric??

Claimed to be Herrera's 84 TDF frame...of what material was this frame? Vitus 979? http://www.rebolledocycles.com/blog/wp- ... -front.jpg

The upper photo link is of a carbon-tubed frame, the lower is aluminium.

The alloy Vitus frames had the rear brake cable routed inside the top tube. The carbon frames used guides bonded to the upper surface of the top tube. I think the photo of Herrera shows a top-routed cable.

Anna Robic

Dave_1 wrote:

Stukie wrote:

Robert Millar and the Peugeot team were riding carbon fibre bikes with alu lugs in the 1984 Tour. You can see the carbon bikes with Jubillee clipped water bottles on the frontpage here. http://www.robertmillar.net/

IMO Millar was on alloy tubing, not Carbon in 84-86 at Peugeot...but if not, then why was everyone else 3 year later in getting onto carbon given the weight saving? I very much doubt carbob frames were at the 84 TDF...but prove me wrong

Millar and Peugeot were riding frames with carbon main tubes in 1983 in fact. IIRC La Redoute-Motebecane were also riding carbon frames in 83.
Pic of Millar in 83 Tour: http://cyclingart.blogspot.com/2008/06/ ... tants.html
There was an article about Millar in the 83 Tour where he was seen to be 'violently angry, cursing his mechanic' because he hadn't prepared his carbon bike for the Alpe d'Huez stage. I can't find it online though. These early carbon frames were a little fragile, I remember reading about one frame snapping in the 83 Tour and a mechanic ripping the stickers off the frame as the photograhers gathered around to get pics. That is the only reason I could suggest for the 3 year gap until other carbon frames appeared.

disquieting_museeuws

Photos from the 1987 Tour show Herrera & Parra riding Vitus 'Carbone 9' frames (with the top-routed cable). I've always assumed these to be re-badged Alan Carbonio frames (or something darn similar). I have it in the back of my mind that another team was also using an Alan-type frame around this time??

I had the Alan Carbonio in 1986-7, btw - very nice light & strong bike IME.