Controversial clipless opinions.
Comments
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The old trainers/woolysocks/seaskinzs is pretty much my setup atm. As a casual cyclist I tried clipless a couple of months and found it didn't make any noticable time difference on the 20mile lap I did to keep off the fat. Perhaps I didn't give a good enough punt, I dunno.Tailend Charlie wrote:Now I can ride in any old soft soled trainers, with a pair of seal skins and woolly socks under and toasty toes....
To be honest, when I switched, I did not notice a great deal of difference in pedalling efficiency, even on all day rides.
More importantly, even tho I never had any explicit clipless moments, I never got entirely comfortable with them. Found I was certainly slower and more arkward in traffic and it made me look forward to getting on the bike much less. It's about enjoying yourself and getting out there more than choice of footware, so clipless had to go!0 -
alfablue wrote:Onan wrote:If you crash your bike in clipless pedals, doesn't it kind of jurt worse, because you go with the bike? I like being able to bail. I can think of loads of times I've had to stop really suddenly on my ride to uni, and when I'm out with the dog, and I think if I'd been clipped in, I would have fallen over attatched to the bike.
The price seems to outweigh the benefits to me, to be honest.
No, if you have the tension set correctly you will unclip as you crash - the design was inspired by ski bindings, which do the same...IF you set the tension right.
This is rubbish TBH. I have been unfortunate enough to crash in a race and I stayed clipped in, it totally depends how you land, I skidded along the road for a long way and both my feet stayed in and my tension is correct, I also crashed on a track and stayed clipped in. You will only become unlipped if your fott roatetes.
Anyway I cannot believe some of the comments about the article, just because individuals do not agree it is best for them. That was not the point of the article, it is just stating some points.
I race so do use clipless. As the article correctly points out, for "normal" riding it is not more efficient to use them . They only become of benefit for "other riding". FAst cadence when it keeps you feet on pedal, climbing where you will pull on upstroke, and try sprinting on flat pedals !!
But as the article says this IMO is not normal riding, remember there are many millions of people cycling but how many race?
TBH I see many many people in all the racing gear on top spec racing bikes, assos clothing, sidi shoes etc and will never break 45 minutes for a 10m tt, will never get round a 100 mile sportive in less than 8 hours and would probably get dropped in a neutralised zone of a race, so are they really getting the benefit of the gear they paid a fortuned for or not? I don't think so and in that respect the article has a point
Of coure everyone has the right to buy such gear and I have no problem with that, but it is more to do with appearance and following others and taking in all the crap from marketing people.
For the average leisure rider there is absolutely no need for clipless pedals or carbon bikes or lots of the other crap marekted as essential and any type of bike, with any pedals and any comfortable position would do.
For slightly more serious riders there is the option to use "old fashioned" toe clips and straps which can be used with normal trainers if you wish again no need for clipless which reauire pedals/shes/cleats combinations and you will never convince me that you will improve performance by switching to clipless from toe straps, just look at records set by old riders.
Cyling marketting people realise how a gullible lot we really are, myself included 0 -
Oh my, those pro riders must be complete idiots and fashion victims!!! Toe clips and straps are much more dangerous than clipless. IF you use them correctly (strap tight) you will not come out. Also you need to loosen the strap prior to every stop, also the pedals will hang upside down and need rotating to get in. I am not convinced that the large number of riders that use clipless are just victims of marketing. I was a huge sceptic, I tried them, I never looked back. My girlfriend who started cycling in June complained of foot-ache - I got her some cycling shoes (happened to be SPD ready). The foot ache vanished (stiff sole, foot not curling round the pedal). I lent her some SPD's to try out, gave her 10 minutes training. She was utterly amazed at the improvement to her riding, especially hill climbing. She has never seen a cycling mag in her life, and she is purely a leisure rider. I think she judged them on their own merits. She berates me for not telling her about SPD's when she first started - you can't winoldwelshman wrote:alfablue wrote:Onan wrote:If you crash your bike in clipless pedals, doesn't it kind of jurt worse, because you go with the bike? I like being able to bail. I can think of loads of times I've had to stop really suddenly on my ride to uni, and when I'm out with the dog, and I think if I'd been clipped in, I would have fallen over attatched to the bike.
The price seems to outweigh the benefits to me, to be honest.
No, if you have the tension set correctly you will unclip as you crash - the design was inspired by ski bindings, which do the same...IF you set the tension right.
This is rubbish TBH. I have been unfortunate enough to crash in a race and I stayed clipped in, it totally depends how you land, I skidded along the road for a long way and both my feet stayed in and my tension is correct, I also crashed on a track and stayed clipped in. You will only become unlipped if your fott roatetes.
Well I am speaking from the perspective of using multi-release SPD cleats, these will release whichever way your foot is pulled.Other pedals may nit be so user friendly, I accept. I would have thought though, by definition, if the tension was right, you would have unclipped. When I had a serious crash, I parted company with the bike pretty quickly!For slightly more serious riders there is the option to use "old fashioned" toe clips and straps which can be used with normal trainers if you wish again no need for clipless which reauire pedals/shes/cleats combinations you will never convince me that you will improve performance by switching to clipless from toe straps, just look at records set by old riders.
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benefits of clipless are too obvious to argue about: just ride a bike with ordinary pedals and you will feel you are not using the muscles that you use riding clipless.
But I don't like them much. I have some spds for a commuter and wont put them on. For riding to work in London I prefer bicycle clips, ie straps and plastic. Much more easy to get out off if quite loose and none of the clipless angst if weaving through static traffic.
I use clipless on my decent road bike for jaunts when there is not much traffic or I dont intend getting off/on much: London on Saturdays or countryside. They're brilliant.
For commuting, though, I really don't like or trust spds as there are just too many potential obstacles.0 -
alfablue wrote:oldwelshman wrote:alfablue wrote:Onan wrote:If you crash your bike in clipless pedals, doesn't it kind of jurt worse, because you go with the bike? I like being able to bail. I can think of loads of times I've had to stop really suddenly on my ride to uni, and when I'm out with the dog, and I think if I'd been clipped in, I would have fallen over attatched to the bike.
The price seems to outweigh the benefits to me, to be honest.
No, if you have the tension set correctly you will unclip as you crash - the design was inspired by ski bindings, which do the same...IF you set the tension right.
This is rubbish TBH. I have been unfortunate enough to crash in a race and I stayed clipped in, it totally depends how you land, I skidded along the road for a long way and both my feet stayed in and my tension is correct, I also crashed on a track and stayed clipped in. You will only become unlipped if your fott roatetes.
Well I am speaking from the perspective of using multi-release SPD cleats, these will release whichever way your foot is pulled.Other pedals may nit be so user friendly, I accept. I would have thought though, by definition, if the tension was right, you would have unclipped. When I had a serious crash, I parted company with the bike pretty quickly!
Oh my, those pro riders must be complete idiots and fashion victims!!! Toe clips and straps are much more dangerous than clipless. IF you use them correctly (strap tight) you will not come out. Also you need to loosen the strap prior to every stop, also the pedals will hang upside down and need rotating to get in. I am not convinced that the large number of riders that use clipless are just victims of marketing. I was a huge sceptic, I tried them, I never looked back. My girlfriend who started cycling in June complained of foot-ache - I got her some cycling shoes (happened to be SPD ready). The foot ache vanished (stiff sole, foot not curling round the pedal). I lent her some SPD's to try out, gave her 10 minutes training. She was utterly amazed at the improvement to her riding, especially hill climbing. She has never seen a cycling mag in her life, and she is purely a leisure rider. I think she judged them on their own merits. She berates me for not telling her about SPD's when she first started - you can't winFor slightly more serious riders there is the option to use "old fashioned" toe clips and straps which can be used with normal trainers if you wish again no need for clipless which reauire pedals/shes/cleats combinations you will never convince me that you will improve performance by switching to clipless from toe straps, just look at records set by old riders.
You are missing the point of the artcile and are blinkered.
You like me are a minority in terms of riding bicycles. If you read my reply I did not claim that climbing does not improve with clipless, nor sprinting, I just said for the majprity of cyclist who happen to be nor racers/wannabee racers/ the off liesure riders who use them. There are millions more who do not use them and have no need, just look how many cyclist are in China where it is a major form of transport. Just look outside the box for a change.
As for unclipping from pedals during a crash, again Isay it depends how you crash !!
With respect to the use of toe clips compared to clipless, if you are claiming it is safer to use clipless I beg to differ.
If you do not have the riding skills to be able to get a foot in and out of a toe strap, or even rotate a pedal to get your foot in, then I suggest you do not have the skill to even be on a bike let alon worry about using clips or clipless and if your that bad I would stick to a motorbike.0 -
Hey, that's a bit heavy oldwelshman! You just said you would never be convinced that there would be an improvement to performance by switching to clipless from toe clips - I am just suggesting that this notion, whilst it may be valid, is not shared by pro riders, and many experts in the field.
As for getting a foot out of a toe strap - there are two ways, 1) if the toe strap is loose (and therefore serving little or no function), just pull the foot out, easy! Or 2) if the strap is properly tightened, reach down, loosen the strap, pull the foot out. It is the reaching down and loosening the strap issue that in my humble opinion makes toe clips and straps less safe than clipless.
Actually my riding skills are just fine thanks, I have used flats, toe clips and straps, and spd's, and I have mastered the lot and I will never be convinced that flat pedals or toe clips and straps will be better or safer for me.0 -
You are right in terms of need, I agree, for example I don't need brakes, I could ride a fixed, I don't need pneumatic tyres, I can have solid, its all about preference, convenience, performance, and in some cases, progress. Hell, I don't even need two wheels...
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alfablue wrote:Hey, that's a bit heavy oldwelshman! You just said you would never be convinced that there would be an improvement to performance by switching to clipless from toe clips - I am just suggesting that this notion, whilst it may be valid, is not shared by pro riders, and many experts in the field.
As for getting a foot out of a toe strap - there are two ways, 1) if the toe strap is loose (and therefore serving little or no function), just pull the foot out, easy! Or 2) if the strap is properly tightened, reach down, loosen the strap, pull the foot out. It is the reaching down and loosening the strap issue that in my humble opinion makes toe clips and straps less safe than clipless.
Actually my riding skills are just fine thanks, I have used flats, toe clips and straps, and spd's, and I have mastered the lot and I will never be convinced that flat pedals or toe clips and straps will be better or safer for me. You are still missing the point of the OP and the point I am making. I am not saying that you personally might not benfit from clipless, I already mentioned sprinting and climbing obviously benefit and I am not saying that you do not have the skils to use toe straps. The point I am making is that for the "vast" majority of cyclists, there would me no measurable difference in their performance for their cycle requirements going to the paddy fields or to the local swaet shop in chaina, I am not on about elite pro riders or even club riders, but we are in the minorty.
As for toe straps versus clipless, if you have good toe straps and double clips then there would be no performance difference, just look at track sprinters.
If clipless are so good why do sprinters still use double strap with clipless? 0 -
Toeclips and double straps will give the most secure attachment to the pedal required in track riding, but they don't have to stop at the traffic lights, if they did they would fall on their backsides. For road riding clipless pedals make more sense than toeclips and straps because you can unhitch without letting go of the bars and bending down to unstrap. Of course clipless makes no sense for the sweet shop or paddy field, but they certainly do make sense for a lot of leisure riders. It's no problem to me if they don't want them, don't see the benefit etc, but there are benefits to be had.oldwelshman wrote:As for toe straps versus clipless, if you have good toe straps and double clips then there would be no performance difference, just look at track sprinters.
If clipless are so good why do sprinters still use double strap with clipless?0 -
alfablue wrote:
As for getting a foot out of a toe strap - there are two ways, 1) if the toe strap is loose (and therefore serving little or no function), just pull the foot out, easy! Or 2) if the strap is properly tightened, reach down, loosen the strap, pull the foot out. It is the reaching down and loosening the strap issue that in my humble opinion makes toe clips and straps less safe than clipless.
Actually my riding skills are just fine thanks, I have used flats, toe clips and straps, and spd's, and I have mastered the lot and I will never be convinced that flat pedals or toe clips and straps will be better or safer for me.
My guess is you haven't used cycle clips: they are a great improvement on nothing even when lose, keeping foot in place and the plastic frame secures some upwood pull. No as good as clipless if loose, but pretty good. The best thing about them is simplicity - and safety. With clipless, I try to stop as little as possible. In London cummuting that's a mistake.0 -
Yes, I have used them, I used them for several years. They were an improvement on flats but occasionally a faff to flip the pedals and get in when under heavy traffic duress. With clipless I unclip without a thought, no problem at all, no clipless moments, when I set off they clip in again just by virtue of putting my feet on the pedals, no concious thought required - a breeze, but I guess that has come with several years experience, the right kit and the right setup. But I can't remember any trouble when I started, maybe its just rose tinted glasses now. I think they can make people very nervous and that may make them less attractive, but my novice cyclist GF took to them like a duck to water, even I was surprised 0
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I think I'm going to get around the problem for now by getting some of those double sided spds. I'll be riding my bike to uni a lot, and it's a short commute in heavy traffic, so clipless would be pretty pointless. Clips and straps would probably be even more of a nuisance. But it gives me the option of trying out clipping in at the weekend. That way I can decide for myself.
I'll get back to you in a week or so with the definitive answer!
LOL.Drink poison. Wrestle snakes.0 -
yes, best to "suck it and see", I started with these (you mean flat one side, clip the other?), when I got used to it I swapped to double-sided (i.e. clips both sides) spd's, then no more pedal flipping.Onan wrote:I think I'm going to get around the problem for now by getting some of those double sided spds. I'll be riding my bike to uni a lot, and it's a short commute in heavy traffic, so clipless would be pretty pointless. Clips and straps would probably be even more of a nuisance. But it gives me the option of trying out clipping in at the weekend. That way I can decide for myself.
I'll get back to you in a week or so with the definitive answer!
LOL.0 -
alfablue wrote:
yes, best to "suck it and see", I started with these (you mean flat one side, clip the other?), when I got used to it I swapped to double-sided (i.e. clips both sides) spd's, then no more pedal flipping.Onan wrote:I think I'm going to get around the problem for now by getting some of those double sided spds. I'll be riding my bike to uni a lot, and it's a short commute in heavy traffic, so clipless would be pretty pointless. Clips and straps would probably be even more of a nuisance. But it gives me the option of trying out clipping in at the weekend. That way I can decide for myself.
I'll get back to you in a week or so with the definitive answer!
LOL.
The other option is the A530s. Look a bit more like real clipless, but don't look they'd be as good to push in normal shoes.Drink poison. Wrestle snakes.0 -
I use toe clips loose so i can get my foot out easily, alot better than just flats for riding though.
I'm planning on getting some clipless shortly, the Speedplay Zero or Light action are apparently very easy to get in and get out so probably going to get these....i would of thought these might be the best alternative to just using flats?Cheers, Stu0 -
Onan wrote:If you crash your bike in clipless pedals, doesn't it kind of jurt worse, because you go with the bike? I.
Writing from an extremely painful personal experience - it was the other way around - I went over the handlebars and the bike went with me.Mahatma Gandhi was asked by a British journalist what he thought of Western civilisation. "I think it would be a good idea," he replied.0 -
I'm not sure there's a need to think about it all that logically. The evidence (ref Coyle et al 1991) has already shown this to be the case.long finger wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:Indeed, attempting to "pedal in circles", if by that one means apply a more even application of torque around the pedal stroke, is an ineffective means to improve one's power output.
Just push harder and faster.
i'm not really qualified to comment on the accuracy of this statement - but I like the way you seem to be thinking about it logically
But if you did want to think about it logically, you can deduce it from first principles anyway (ref Koening & van Soest article on Biomechanics).0 -
bice,For commuting, though, I really don't like or trust spds as there are just too many potential obstacles
I use SPDs for all my cycling which includes MTB, weekend road rides and central London commuting. I never worry about getting out of SPDs - I find it incredibly easy and natural (much more so than toe clips which I used off road 15 years ago). Also, double-side SPDs are much easy than toe clips to get into again.
Admittedly, I do often choose to trackstand at lights etc to avoid clipping out and in again but it's not because I find it difficult, it's just smoother not to have to bother.
These days, I hate riding without SPDs, I worry about my foot slipping off the pedal and I struggle to keep my foot in the best position.
I don't really understand the idea that SPDs are pointless for recreational cyclists. I have never raced and yet at times I want to put a burst of speed in, to pull up a short steep hill without changing down or push to do my 10 mile commute in 30 mins. SPDs make all that easier and safer.
J0 -
I agree with Jedster 100%, except I cant track stand :oops: . Clipping out is easy, I trained myself to always unclip the left then lean to the left when stopping. I don't feel safe without spd's now.0
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I was toying with the idea of binning my spds from my mtb the other week - untill I rode with normal flats on a demo bike I was looking at. Clearly mtbing is slightly different but even riding up fireroads/tarmacced hills I still slipped off a fair bit when I tried to pull the pedals up rather than push them down. Untill I'd tried the flats I wasn't conscious of how much I do try and pull on the upstroke.
Just as an aside - does anyone remember powerstraps? One strap of webbing running from front corner to opposite back corner of the pedal, you put your foot through and then when you'd twisted your foot to the correct riding position the strap tightened over it. They were like a weird SPD/clipped hybrid thing...0 -
I can't believe I cycled so long without clipless pedals, ony started using 'em about 18months ago, but so natural now, use for commuting too. I haven't done as much mtn biking as usual recently, and not having fitted 'em on my mtn bike it definitely felt strange without them, I was always twisting to unclip just naturally.0
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The guy seems to want to shoot himself in the foot. While much of his article does make sense when applied to the majority of people who ride bikes (I refer to these as 'bike riders' rather than 'cyclists' who are those who ride bikes just because they can and not just to get from A to
it does not make much sense to sport cyclists most of whom would not be seen dead without their clipless pedals. What I can not understand is that he is a niche manufacturer of fairly high end steel bikes, a somewhat limited market and not really where most 'bike riders' get their bikes from. I would have thought £200 at Halfords would be nearer the mark. Maybe the snob/antisnob culture is even more prevelent in the USA than here. As for me, all the bikes I ride for fun will be keeping their clipless and IF I ever need a shopping bike that will have flats, both pedals and bars, and a large bag/ pannier or basket. 0 -
I thought that too. For all his talk about cyclists taking it too seriously, and it being about fun, it seems strange that his company don't offer a bike for less than $3000. Surely you have to take cycling pretty seriously to spend that kind of money on a bike.
But I think you're wrong about ypes of cyclist. I think there are lots of people who are or should be on road bikes, who just ride for a bit of fun and fitness, for who'm all the gear is a bit offputting. I'm one of them.
It does seem a bit like you either get your sit up and beg and pootle to the shops, or you get your super techy road bike, kit up, clip in and zoom about like a pro. It feels like if you want a road bike, you have to go down that route. Which I'm sure is partly just marketing.Drink poison. Wrestle snakes.0 -
I did use the word majority and accept that there will always be a cross over. Don't forget that road bikes start at £200/£300 as well. When we are talking about a large number of people there will always be some that buck the trend and I have no problem with that.
'Bike riders' also in my book includes any rider who jumps red lights, does not stop at zebra crossings and generaly ignores the rules of the road. 'Cyclists' are ANY who ride for the fun of it and do so sensibly and try to avoid getting the rest of us a bad name. Opens another can of worms.0 -
oldwelshman wrote:[Cycling marketting people realise how gullible a lot we really are, myself included
Well said!
I don't think people realize just how susceptible they are to advertising. The most important thing about cycling is to do it. It is possible to very happy riding your bike even if it isn't the most expensive you can/can't afford. So many people on here seem to obsess about buying new bikes/gear etc as if it is going to be a huge benefit to them and bring them everlasting equanimity. Six months later it seems that they want to spend more. No wonder advertising is such big business and Coronation St. is really only about 17 mins long We are born with the dead:
See, they return, and bring us with them.0 -
The original article isn't saying anything that isn't obvious. If you are going to potter around town or spend 8 hours on a sunny day riding 5 miles to and from a pub then clipless is a stupid option. However, for road racers they are pretty much the only option, even Sean Kelly uses them now :idea:
But clips and straps they are almost useless in all but few very limited situations and IMO are a complete pain in the backside on commute bikes due to adding little to efficiency if anything over flats and ruining you decent shoes.0
