Imaginary race up the 'Alpe'
Up the Alpe d'Huez, if this was an imaginary race, these riders at their peaks would finish in this order. We all know why Pantani, Ullrich, Landis and Virenque are so fast, but why is Lance over ten minutes ahead of Lemond?
1.37.35 M Pantani
2. 37.36 L. Armstrong
3. 38.23 J. Ullrich
4. 38.34 F. Landis
5. 39.032 R. Virenque
6 48.00 G. Lemond
1.37.35 M Pantani
2. 37.36 L. Armstrong
3. 38.23 J. Ullrich
4. 38.34 F. Landis
5. 39.032 R. Virenque
6 48.00 G. Lemond
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Comments
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Because on the days in question Lemond had to spend a lot of time chasing after and keeping up with the treacherous team-mate Bernard Hinault over the Croix de Fer before they reached AdH - his objective that day was to mark Hinault to prevent him stealing the Tour lead - whereas Lance on his day tricked Telekom into giving him a free ride to the foot of the climb.
Comparing the ascent times doesn't really take into account differing race tactics, courses (the Pantani stage had fewer mountains before AdH that day) or whatever weather conditions were like (before we even consider possible technological or pharmaceutical advantages).0 -
Plus Armstrong's time was logged in a TT started in Bourg D'Oisans high street A road which is markedly less challenging than the Col De Galibier."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Is this a serious question? There's a list of EPO-era rider's times next to that of prob the last clean(ish) rider to win the Tour. There's endless threads that address your last question, why not have a wee read of those & then come back? We don't really need another LA thread....LazyRacer wrote:Up the Alpe d'Huez, if this was an imaginary race, these riders at their peaks would finish in this order. We all know why Pantani, Ullrich, Landis and Virenque are so fast, but why is Lance over ten minutes ahead of Lemond?
1.37.35 M Pantani
2. 37.36 L. Armstrong
3. 38.23 J. Ullrich
4. 38.34 F. Landis
5. 39.032 R. Virenque
6 48.00 G. Lemond0 -
Fignon did it in 41 minutes something, I seem to recall. I could be wrong but Lemond was capable of about the same as Fignon.
But look, everybody knows that those guys were doping, including Lance. It's so obvious.
Another you missed out is Indurain. He did it in high 39. Now you tell me how on Earth he managed that if he wasn't taking EPO. A clean Indurain would probably be over 50 minutes, no joke.
Guys as good as Lemond and Fignon are very rare. They were 6th and 7th in the EPO Tour of 91 which is freakish considering they did not use EPO. Being within 4 minutes of Pantani who jacked his crit to 60%before such stages is remarkable. If Lemond had taken EPO in 91 he would have destroyed Indurain and the rest.0 -
Patrick1.0 wrote:If Lemond had taken EPO in 91 he would have destroyed Indurain and the rest.
Sadly he might not have. EPO favours riders that react best to it. Usually bigger powerful riders that can utilise the extra oxygen carrying capacity more than the slighter riders. Primo examples include Indurain, Ullrich, Basso and some say Armstrong. These guys are pharmalogical machines that can maximise their wattage through boosting theri VO2 max thresholds enormously.
Lemond and I suspect most other greats before him had a freakish 91 or so VO2 max and so would not have seen the benefits.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
what a load of shit this thread is ... sastre's time up d'uez was well ahead of half those offered.
and as for lemond ... how many tests were there when he raced ... and for what ... he's just a jealous little shit who cant get a gig unless it involves 'i hate lance' ...0 -
Cripes 6288 someone hit a nerve there! Although the OP may have been being michevious, after all this topic has been done before with much the same mud slinging on either side.0
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Timoid. wrote:Patrick1.0 wrote:If Lemond had taken EPO in 91 he would have destroyed Indurain and the rest.
Sadly he might not have. EPO favours riders that react best to it. Usually bigger powerful riders that can utilise the extra oxygen carrying capacity more than the slighter riders. Primo examples include Indurain, Ullrich, Basso and some say Armstrong. These guys are pharmalogical machines that can maximise their wattage through boosting theri VO2 max thresholds enormously.
Lemond and I suspect most other greats before him had a freakish 91 or so VO2 max and so would not have seen the benefits.
That's annoying. So the best natural talent in the race might not stand a chance even if on epo? That irritates me. Given that Armstrong, Ullrich, Indurain and co were close to 15 kgs heavier than me.
I didn't know Basso was that big until I looked at his stats. 6ft and 70 kg. Powerful machine just like the others.0 -
I think you’re wrong to consider Lemond the ‘best natural talent’. He never had the allround ability of Hinault, or in more recent years some others, e.g. Jalabert.
When comparing Alpe times, to see how good or how doped the TdF riders were, why not also look at what keen amateurs, i.e the likes of (better than) you and I, manage in competition. A time trial up the Alpe is part of the Grande Trophee (a series of events including the Marmotte), and in the event this year, the winner took 44-25.
I’d imagine that most best Alpe times up to 1990 were fairly legitimate, or at least doping played a minor role for the short exertion; doping then was for overall stamina rather than specific stages or parts of stages.
After then it’s harder to judge what was without unfair means.
Based on advances in training, nutrition and bike technology, I think it possible LA and Vino in 2003, F. Schleck, Klöden and Landis in 2006, and Sastre in 2008 all achieved Alpe times with little use of stimulants. Which doesn't mean I think they didn't dope - but their times were within the realms of possibility without dope.
All the rest of the best times since 1990 strike me as suspect..0 -
Timoid. wrote:Patrick1.0 wrote:If Lemond had taken EPO in 91 he would have destroyed Indurain and the rest.
Sadly he might not have. EPO favours riders that react best to it. Usually bigger powerful riders that can utilise the extra oxygen carrying capacity more than the slighter riders. Primo examples include Indurain, Ullrich, Basso and some say Armstrong. These guys are pharmalogical machines that can maximise their wattage through boosting theri VO2 max thresholds enormously.
s.
Ricco,Heras,Pantani,Kohl,Sella,Schumaker all slight of build and all seemed to benefit greatly from EPO. So its looks like much and such to me.
cheers
MGGasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
Schumacher's 'slight statistics'
Height 1.83 m (6.0 ft)
Weight 68 kg (150 lb)
As for the rest, no question, slight.
Why stop at LeMond. What of Coppi for instance? Here's a list of the top 30 ascent times, from Wiki, with one ommission.
Can anyone spot who is missing?
Ascent times
1 37' 35" Marco Pantani 1997 Italy
2* 37' 36" Lance Armstrong 2004 United States
3 38' 00" Marco Pantani 1994 Italy
4 38' 01" Lance Armstrong 2001 United States
5 38' 04" Marco Pantani 1995 Italy
6 38' 23" Jan Ullrich 1997 Germany
7 38' 34" Floyd Landis 2006 United States
8 38' 35" Andreas Klöden 2006 Germany
9* 38' 37" Jan Ullrich 2004 Germany
10 39' 02" Richard Virenque 1997 France
11 39' 06" Iban Mayo 2003 Spain
12* 39' 17" Andreas Klöden 2004 Germany
13* 39' 21" Jose Azevedo 2004 Portugal
14 39' 28" Miguel Induráin 1995 Spain
15 39' 28" Alex Zülle 1995 Switzerland
16 39' 30" Bjarne Riis 1995 Denmark
17 39' 31" Carlos Sastre 2008 Spain
18 39' 44" Gianni Bugno 1991 Italy
19 39' 45" Miguel Induráin 1991 Spain
20 40' 00" Jan Ullrich 2001 Germany
21 40' 46" Fränk Schleck 2006 Luxembourg
22 40' 51" Alexander Vinokourov 2003 Kazakhstan
23 41' 18" Lance Armstrong 2003 United States
24 41' 50" Laurent Fignon 1989 France
25 41' 50" Luis Herrera 1986 Colombia
26 42' 15" Pedro Delgado 1989 Spain
27 45' 20" Gert-Jan Theunisse 1989 Netherlands
28 45' 22" Fausto Coppi 1952 Italy
29 48' 00" Greg Lemond 1986 United States
30 48' 00" Bernard Hinault 1986 France
6288, in answer to your fevered rant. Here's Sastre's fastest ever nonsense rebuffed."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
i'll concede landis caught me off guard ... but lemod is WAY down the list behind sastre and a fair few other names (azevedo?) ... so its hardly a point well illustrated is it?
its not the discussion i have a problem with ... its this worshipping of lemond ... he was a good rider .. .but like every other sport someone better always comes along ... he should show more grace in the historical defeat ... i swear to god he went after landis like nothing on earth .. why ... ANOTHER american TDF winner ... i am willing to admit lance is suspect to some extent due to the competition all being up to no good and him still winning so easily ... but landis was gonna test positive if he knew he was on something that day ... so had nothing to gain by that .. only lose his career ...0 -
6288 - have you registeted before as FloydFan? :roll:0
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Where's Cunego, who was only a few seconds slower than Schleck in 06. Don't really trust that list.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0
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Timoid. wrote:Where's Cunego, who was only a few seconds slower than Schleck in 06. Don't really trust that list.
That's wikipedia for you: there obviously aren’t any English-speaking contributors interested enough to add Cunego’s name to the list.
wikipedia is in some ways a forum disguised as an encyclopedia.0 -
Lemond's time is a bit misleading. Didn't he and Hinault ride away from the peloton over the Croix de Fer? Those two were miles ahead by the time they got to the Alpe, and they rode up l'Alpe together at a relatively easy pace, crossing the line together. I'm guessing Lemond could have produced a high 30s/low 40s time at his peak if he was going for it.Le Blaireau (1)0
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DaveyL wrote:Lemond's time is a bit misleading. Didn't he and Hinault ride away from the peloton over the Croix de Fer? Those two were miles ahead by the time they got to the Alpe, and they rode up l'Alpe together at a relatively easy pace, crossing the line together. I'm guessing Lemond could have produced a high 30s/low 40s time at his peak if he was going for it.
Yes, he could;Fignon did it in 41.50 one year. 40 minutes seems to be about the peak of human performance without epo. Add epo and you get the 37.30's of Pantani and Armstrong. Three minutes is a huge gap at that level.
But this should give people hope, it certainly does me, you can do a fantastic time up the Alpe clean if you're a super natural climber. EPO skews the results terribly but I laugh at all the people who say you need to take EPO to be a good pro. Clearly not. If you are racing against Armstrong and Pantani then you need the EPO to win, yes because they're both on it.
Only thing is, if you took Pantani and Armstrong off EPO, I am sure Pantani would go up the Alpe much faster than Armstrong, unassisted.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:Schumacher's 'slight statistics'
Height 1.83 m (6.0 ft)
Weight 68 kg (150 lb)
As for the rest, no question, slight.
to me 68kg is slight :-)
cheers
MGGasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
Moray Gub wrote:Blazing Saddles wrote:Schumacher's 'slight statistics'
Height 1.83 m (6.0 ft)
Weight 68 kg (150 lb)
As for the rest, no question, slight.
to me 68kg is slight :-)
cheers
MG
For 6ft it is.
But like me, some of these climbers are nearly 10 kgs lighter than that :oops: . If the wind blows, you're off the mountain
. 0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:
Why stop at LeMond. What of Coppi for instance? Here's a list of the top 30 ascent times, from Wiki, with one ommission.
Can anyone spot who is missing?
Ascent times
1 37' 35" Marco Pantani 1997 Italy
2* 37' 36" Lance Armstrong 2004 United States
3 38' 00" Marco Pantani 1994 Italy
4 38' 01" Lance Armstrong 2001 United States
5 38' 04" Marco Pantani 1995 Italy
6 38' 23" Jan Ullrich 1997 Germany
7 38' 34" Floyd Landis 2006 United States
8 38' 35" Andreas Klöden 2006 Germany
9* 38' 37" Jan Ullrich 2004 Germany
10 39' 02" Richard Virenque 1997 France
11 39' 06" Iban Mayo 2003 Spain
12* 39' 17" Andreas Klöden 2004 Germany
13* 39' 21" Jose Azevedo 2004 Portugal
14 39' 28" Miguel Induráin 1995 Spain
15 39' 28" Alex Zülle 1995 Switzerland
16 39' 30" Bjarne Riis 1995 Denmark
17 39' 31" Carlos Sastre 2008 Spain
18 39' 44" Gianni Bugno 1991 Italy
19 39' 45" Miguel Induráin 1991 Spain
20 40' 00" Jan Ullrich 2001 Germany
21 40' 46" Fränk Schleck 2006 Luxembourg
22 40' 51" Alexander Vinokourov 2003 Kazakhstan
23 41' 18" Lance Armstrong 2003 United States
24 41' 50" Laurent Fignon 1989 France
25 41' 50" Luis Herrera 1986 Colombia
26 42' 15" Pedro Delgado 1989 Spain
27 45' 20" Gert-Jan Theunisse 1989 Netherlands
28 45' 22" Fausto Coppi 1952 Italy
29 48' 00" Greg Lemond 1986 United States
30 48' 00" Bernard Hinault 1986 France
I have seen this list before and i think the webpage is wrong to give them numbers like that. Maybe it is the top 30 properly timed or something? In 2004 for instance, i think that 5 others may have gone under 40 minutes as they finished under 39 seconds behind Azevedo.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/to ... ts/stage16
As regards Lemond, this video shows him finishing just over a minute behind Fignon in 1989. If they started together at the bottom then that would give him about 43 minutes?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FgtxhgrL- ... re=related0 -
Patrick1.0 wrote:DaveyL wrote:Lemond's time is a bit misleading. Didn't he and Hinault ride away from the peloton over the Croix de Fer? Those two were miles ahead by the time they got to the Alpe, and they rode up l'Alpe together at a relatively easy pace, crossing the line together. I'm guessing Lemond could have produced a high 30s/low 40s time at his peak if he was going for it.
Yes, he could;Fignon did it in 41.50 one year. 40 minutes seems to be about the peak of human performance without epo. Add epo and you get the 37.30's of Pantani and Armstrong. Three minutes is a huge gap at that level.
But this should give people hope, it certainly does me, you can do a fantastic time up the Alpe clean if you're a super natural climber. EPO skews the results terribly but I laugh at all the people who say you need to take EPO to be a good pro. Clearly not. If you are racing against Armstrong and Pantani then you need the EPO to win, yes because they're both on it.
Only thing is, if you took Pantani and Armstrong off EPO, I am sure Pantani would go up the Alpe much faster than Armstrong, unassisted.
As I wrote on p1, Lemond's concern was to mark the back-stabbing tactic of Hinault rather than set a record time up the Alpe. I would love a rivalry like that to take place in the current media-frenzied era of tour coverage.
Well, there's Conti & the Texan next season, perhaps at some point they'll treat us to a remake in some race or other - Armstrong as the Badger and Alberto playing the Lemond role of talented team-mate made paranoid by contradictory stated ambitions and actual tactics of his senior partner.0 -
Le Commentateur wrote:Patrick1.0 wrote:DaveyL wrote:As I wrote on p1, Lemond's concern was to mark the back-stabbing tactic of Hinault rather than set a record time up the Alpe. I would love a rivalry like that to take place in the current media-frenzied era of tour coverage.
Well, there's Conti & the Texan next season, perhaps at some point they'll treat us to a remake in some race or other - Armstrong as the Badger and Alberto playing the Lemond role of talented team-mate made paranoid by contradictory stated ambitions and actual tactics of his senior partner.
I think this is a given. If LA gets anywhere next year - which he will, £ to a penny he'll ride the tour in 2010. I dont think even he will be so un-subtle as to barge in on Contis party, but 10 will be open season, no doubt Conti will move to a friendlier team winter 09 too.
I think Basso in California will be a goodun with LA their too. Ditto round 2 at the Giro, the Vuelta? oh please Monsieur wiv zis you are spoiling us
"Clean fight please gents!"0 -
Indeed, the list, as I said, was incomplete, Cunego being the odd man out on a road stage.
2004: The top 30 or 40 beat 44", as it was an ITT. Kinda makes a compilation list bit tricky.
No idea what criteria was used.
Coppi's 45" . Where do he fit into the scheme of things?
It came at the end of a 266 km romp from Lausanne, not ridden cosetted by the peloton and on a bike weighing 7kgs more than a modern frame, up an unsurfaced road."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:Indeed, the list, as I said, was incomplete, Cunego being the odd man out on a road stage.
2004: The top 30 or 40 beat 44", as it was an ITT. Kinda makes a compilation list bit tricky.
No idea what criteria was used.
Coppi's 45" . Where do he fit into the scheme of things?
It came at the end of a 266 km romp from Lausanne, not ridden cosetted by the peloton and on a bike weighing 7kgs more than a modern frame, up an unsurfaced road.[/quote
Into the pantheon of sporting gods 8) [/b]pm0 -
Has anyone other than some clueless forumers/Lance fanboys ever claimed that Lemond was doping ?0
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Blazing Saddles wrote:Schumacher's 'slight statistics'
Height 1.83 m (6.0 ft)
Weight 68 kg (150 lb)
As for the rest, no question, slight.
Why stop at LeMond. What of Coppi for instance? Here's a list of the top 30 ascent times, from Wiki, with one ommission.
Can anyone spot who is missing?
Ascent times
1 37' 35" Marco Pantani 1997 Italy
2* 37' 36" Lance Armstrong 2004 United States
3 38' 00" Marco Pantani 1994 Italy
4 38' 01" Lance Armstrong 2001 United States
5 38' 04" Marco Pantani 1995 Italy
6 38' 23" Jan Ullrich 1997 Germany
7 38' 34" Floyd Landis 2006 United States
8 38' 35" Andreas Klöden 2006 Germany
9* 38' 37" Jan Ullrich 2004 Germany
10 39' 02" Richard Virenque 1997 France
11 39' 06" Iban Mayo 2003 Spain
12* 39' 17" Andreas Klöden 2004 Germany
13* 39' 21" Jose Azevedo 2004 Portugal
14 39' 28" Miguel Induráin 1995 Spain
15 39' 28" Alex Zülle 1995 Switzerland
16 39' 30" Bjarne Riis 1995 Denmark
17 39' 31" Carlos Sastre 2008 Spain
18 39' 44" Gianni Bugno 1991 Italy
19 39' 45" Miguel Induráin 1991 Spain
20 40' 00" Jan Ullrich 2001 Germany
21 40' 46" Fränk Schleck 2006 Luxembourg
22 40' 51" Alexander Vinokourov 2003 Kazakhstan
23 41' 18" Lance Armstrong 2003 United States
24 41' 50" Laurent Fignon 1989 France
25 41' 50" Luis Herrera 1986 Colombia
26 42' 15" Pedro Delgado 1989 Spain
27 45' 20" Gert-Jan Theunisse 1989 Netherlands
28 45' 22" Fausto Coppi 1952 Italy
29 48' 00" Greg Lemond 1986 United States
30 48' 00" Bernard Hinault 1986 France
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Is it Joseba Beloki who is missing?0 -
Well, over 140 riders under 48 min in the 2004 ITT
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/to ... ts/stage16Le Blaireau (1)0 -
andyp wrote:6288 - have you registeted before as FloydFan? :roll:
Floyd has a fan? :shock:0
