last TDF winner
to podium at Paris Roubaix, Flanders or Milan San Remo was??
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redddraggon wrote:Greg Lemond?
Milan San Remo 2nd in 1986?
Fignon won San Remo in '89 though......but Lemond won the tour after him......
true...shocking really, been 20 years since Tour winners really went to the big classics...and how dangerous is Paris Roubaix really?0 -
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I think Hinault's beef with P-R was not that it is dangerous, rather that it is a lottery. The race is often decided by who doesn't get a flat.Dave_1 wrote:redddraggon wrote:Greg Lemond?
Milan San Remo 2nd in 1986?
Fignon won San Remo in '89 though......but Lemond won the tour after him......
true...shocking really, been 20 years since Tour winners really went to the big classics...and how dangerous is Paris Roubaix really?0 -
redddraggon wrote:Dave_1 wrote:true...shocking really, been 20 years since Tour winners really went to the big classics...and how dangerous is Paris Roubaix really?
If we're just talking about Grand Tour winners, Cunego hasn't done too badly in the Classics.....
am kinda focusing on the cobbled 2 and San Remo, Liege and Fleche, Amstel are perfect for GT climbers and most big GT winners have doen those 3..but avoided the cobbled two...0 -
Gianni Bugno won Vlaanderen while being Indurain's main TdF challenger and Giro winner.
LBL and Amstel have kept attracting the GT contenders, Armstrong, Valverde, etc.0 -
FJS wrote:Gianni Bugno won Vlaanderen while being Indurain's main TdF challenger and Giro winner.
LBL and Amstel have kept attracting the GT contenders, Armstrong, Valverde, etc.
true...but Bugno's 1993 season was not strong on the grand tour front, he'd been demorlised by Indurain in 1992 at TDF and had a really lousy day on the Galibier 1993 so, not really a grand tour challenger after 1992...so, I would suggest his riding of spring classics by 1994 was that they were his season. What I mean is when is the last GT winner of the previous season with a high chance of winning the following season at GTs and yet riding Flanders and Roubaix to win0 -
We discussed this a few weeks ago - look back prior to 1992, and the same riders who dominated the tours were contending the classics - since Indurain arrived it's almost like they are on seperate programmes. Call me a cynic, but pre-EPO, riders didn't feel the need for a break between the spring races and the GTs - now they 'disappear' for 5-6 weeks for 'preparation'. What advantage do you get from not riding tours like Vasco, Asturias and Tirreno-Adriatico and going out on your own?Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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Monty Dog wrote:We discussed this a few weeks ago - look back prior to 1992, and the same riders who dominated the tours were contending the classics - since Indurain arrived it's almost like they are on seperate programmes. Call me a cynic, but pre-EPO, riders didn't feel the need for a break between the spring races and the GTs - now they 'disappear' for 5-6 weeks for 'preparation'. What advantage do you get from not riding tours like Vasco, Asturias and Tirreno-Adriatico and going out on your own?
The only thing I'd say about this is that given the speeds they ride at in these races, all year round now, it may be better to not compete in too many of the classics if you're a GC contender. Going out on your own obviously means you're not racing for 4-5 hours; you're just training.
I would have thought the GC contenders would be racing themselves into top shape in the last month or two before the Tour. So it makes more sense to use the classics in the build up to your peak than it does to not use them unless you are doping. These guys on epo just need to avoid being caught and use the benefits of epo and all the other drugs to train really hard. And we know that this is what they've been up to for years. Getting their crit really high and training at high intensity before a targetted event.
Pre epo, this wasn't happening and GC contenders were at least showing up at these classics even if their only intention was to ride hard in a race situation.
There is no way a clean Indurain would have ever been able to even compete with Lemond. Lemond was just physiologically superior to Indurain as a Tour rider. Everybody who knows cycling knows this.0 -
Monty Dog wrote:We discussed this a few weeks ago - look back prior to 1992, and the same riders who dominated the tours were contending the classics - since Indurain arrived it's almost like they are on seperate programmes. Call me a cynic, but pre-EPO, riders didn't feel the need for a break between the spring races and the GTs - now they 'disappear' for 5-6 weeks for 'preparation'. What advantage do you get from not riding tours like Vasco, Asturias and Tirreno-Adriatico and going out on your own?
You are probably right.
They were likely trying to stay off the radar..no racing-no tests- can do huge training blocks on 5 different products
But surely increased testing now counters that theory?0 -
Monty Dog wrote:We discussed this a few weeks ago - look back prior to 1992, and the same riders who dominated the tours were contending the classics - since Indurain arrived it's almost like they are on seperate programmes. Call me a cynic, but pre-EPO, riders didn't feel the need for a break between the spring races and the GTs - now they 'disappear' for 5-6 weeks for 'preparation'. What advantage do you get from not riding tours like Vasco, Asturias and Tirreno-Adriatico and going out on your own?
I think the reason they could contest the classics and the GT was the fact that they were on EPO. The fact that the riders take brakes and focus on particular races would point to the decline of use inside the peleton. Call me an optimist.Take care of the luxuries and the necessites will take care of themselves.0 -
You're an optimist
But remember, we might think riders were racing all season long, doing the classics and Grand Tours but look back to Laurent Fignon's amazing 1989. Yes he won Milan San Remo but things went quieter for him until the Giro and then he had a rest between this race and the Tour. Riders were not racing non-stop.
I think it was partly riders like LeMond who realised that winning the Tour would define your season, that it was financially better to guarantee top form for July than by risking fatigue or injury by doing loads of races before. As more money has come into the sport and the Tour dominates the calendar, this has only reinforced this. But only for a few riders capable of winning the GC. The majority of riders are still trying to do a lot of races competitively.
What certainly changed in the 1990s was ONCE taking time away from racing, with riders supposedly following precise and hard training plans by fax. I'm sure they were training but they were also on a cocktail of drugs including EPO.0 -
richard wants a baum wrote:Monty Dog wrote:We discussed this a few weeks ago - look back prior to 1992, and the same riders who dominated the tours were contending the classics - since Indurain arrived it's almost like they are on seperate programmes. Call me a cynic, but pre-EPO, riders didn't feel the need for a break between the spring races and the GTs - now they 'disappear' for 5-6 weeks for 'preparation'. What advantage do you get from not riding tours like Vasco, Asturias and Tirreno-Adriatico and going out on your own?
I think the reason they could contest the classics and the GT was the fact that they were on EPO. The fact that the riders take brakes and focus on particular races would point to the decline of use inside the peloton. Call me an optimist.
The last serious Tour De France contenders (either winning or podium placed in the previous year's TDF) to then to go all out in the following season when they are certs for TDF GC win ...to sacrafice their TDF form for Milan San remo and the two big cobbled classic wins was Greg Lemond and Laurent Fignon 85-89 and there was no EPO at that time....so I don't understand what you mean by they could do the classics and the grand tours cause of EPO...it was last achieved before EPO!0 -
It has little to do with EPO. Both the combination of classics and GTs, and the trend towards a complete disregard for the Classics and complete focus on July (Lemond) predated EPO.0
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FJS wrote:It has little to do with EPO. Both the combination of classics and GTs, and the trend towards a complete disregard for the Classics and complete focus on July (Lemond) predated EPO.
To be fair, Lemond seemed to be struggling badly in spring 89 after two seasons out with getting shot etc in 87, 88 so his specialisation in the 1989 TDF was more to do with having to come back after 2 years out...by 1990 spring...god knows what his reason was...he was not fit at all like Ullrich...but who would have predicted that Lemond started such an awful boring era of tour specialisation when he was on the podium in San Remo in 86 the year he won the TDF and 4th in Roubaix the year he came 2nd to Hinault, 85!
It's time some pressure got put on the current generation of GT men to ride the cobbled races...there's no excuse for it...thye are either dodging dope controls as much as possible or are overpaid and can't be assed0 -
Dave_1 wrote:FJS wrote:
It's time some pressure got put on the current generation of GT men to ride the cobbled races...there's no excuse for it...thye are either dodging dope controls as much as possible or are overpaid and can't be assed
Most of the top GT riders compete in the Tour of the Basque Country (held at the same time), which is much better preparation for stage races and the Ardennes Classics, due to the hilly course. This year's BC featured Sastre, Evans, Schleck, Contador and Cunego among others.0 -
johnfinch wrote:Dave_1 wrote:FJS wrote:
It's time some pressure got put on the current generation of GT men to ride the cobbled races...there's no excuse for it...thye are either dodging dope controls as much as possible or are overpaid and can't be assed
Most of the top GT riders compete in the Tour of the Basque Country (held at the same time), which is much better preparation for stage races and the Ardennes Classics, due to the hilly course. This year's BC featured Sastre, Evans, Schleck, Contador and Cunego among others.
This is about the top two one day races of the spring and how come TDF contenders deemed the cobbled classics not adverse to theiir tour prep in 80s?0 -
Dave_1 wrote:johnfinch wrote:Dave_1 wrote:FJS wrote:
It's time some pressure got put on the current generation of GT men to ride the cobbled races...there's no excuse for it...thye are either dodging dope controls as much as possible or are overpaid and can't be assed
Most of the top GT riders compete in the Tour of the Basque Country (held at the same time), which is much better preparation for stage races and the Ardennes Classics, due to the hilly course. This year's BC featured Sastre, Evans, Schleck, Contador and Cunego among others.
This is about the top two one day races of the spring and how come TDF contenders deemed the cobbled classics not adverse to theiir tour prep in 80s?
Riders could do both the classics and Basque in the same season in those days - Sean Kelly won both BC and P-R, for example, in 1984 & 1986. Personally I think it's a pity that the modern calendar does not allow riders to do all three of these events, but as this is not the case, the riders have to make the choice.
Also, cycling has changed a lot since the 1980's - a bigger peloton, more awareness of how to reach peak performance and increasing specialization. Plus, the TDF is even more dominant in the cycling calendar than before, so it's very difficult to say that they used to do it, so they should be able to nowadays.0
