The end of cycling?? I doubt it.

dennisn

Much has been written on this forum about the pro doping problem and the Lance
problem. Both of which are said(by more than a few people) to herald the end of cycling as we know it or something along those lines. To put it bluntly, "what a load of....".
I think times are great and here's why.
1.) The Pro racing calender has more races on it than ever before. Seems like a new one,
in a new place, appears on the schedule quite regularly. If you want to try to make a
living racing, the time is as good as it's going to get.
2.) There are more tours, amateur and club racing, and organized rides than ever. The
probability of something going on near you at any given time is pretty good.
3.) The choices of components, frames, wheels, tires, is amazing. When someone writes
in to this forum and asks "what wheel should I buy?" he gets a least 20 different
suggestions and this barely scratches the surface of what's available. Obviously
no one told the manufacturers that cycling was dead.
4.) 30 years ago myself and a few friends were the only riders out there. Now no matter
where you are you tend to see riders. More commuting, more local rides and races.
5.) I have 20 or 30 cycling related web sites(racing, on line shopping, news, forums) on
my computer favorites list. Seems like new ones out there daily.
6.) More companies than ever are manufacturing and / or selling all manner of cycling
apparel, bikes, tires, books, computers, trainers. Some of them are selling these
things at prices you can't believe. Especially some of the high end custom boys.
7.) Last but not least, cycling will never die until the clincher vs tubular debate gets
settled and I don't see that happening anytime soon. Not to mention the ongoing rolling
resistance question.

So forget the doom and gloom guys and their whining and crying. The are right about one
thing, cycling is dying for them, but not for the rest of us. It's sad.

Dennis Noward

unclemalc

Dennis:
Good for you.

blazing_saddles

Tell that to the Germans.

claudb

Yes, Thanks for some justifyably positive spin Dennis.
I try to see it that way too but it always seems to get drowned-out by gloom/doom-mongering.

ddraver

Cycling is nt dead - Pro Road Cycling as we know it may be gettin there

Certainly track, BMX, XC, DH, FR - anything that can be abbreviated - is not dead

damage36

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Tell that to the Germans.

True, German pro cycling is taking a big hit. But the amateur sport is thriving most places.

Good stuff Dennis

knedlicky

damage36 wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Tell that to the Germans.

True, German pro cycling is taking a big hit. But the amateur sport is thriving most places.

And Linus Gerdemann wil be a TdF top contender next year, embarassing German TV.

method

To be honest I think you've deliberately missed the point, I've not seen anyone saying that this "heralds the end of cycling as we know it or something along those lines". All the talk is about Pro-Cycling, which does have a problem. As has been mentioned, Germany are no longer broadcasting the TDF and the Tour of Germany has been cancelled. Considering they make up a huge percentage of the viewing audience it does suggest a problem, not the end I'm sure, but a large adjustment certainly.

Yes amateur cycling is going well, there are lots of websites etc etc, no one was saying there wasn't. Personally most whining on here I've seen is from you. Everything else has been fairly reasoned debate amongst people who find this topic interesting, if you don't like it, I'm sure you can look at one of your other bookmarks.

Patrick1.0

What's happening in Germany is very much a mark of what is to come IF the sport can't clean up. Sponsors do start pulling the plug when doping scandals are around. Whilst they can get away with it, they will turn a blind eye to doping but you can't really do that when your investment is jeopardised by it. There is also the fact that sponsors don't want to be seen as funding drug cheats, it's damging to their brand. Before the sponsors attitude was: "everybody inside the sport knows all the top guys are doping but nobody's getting caught so it's not a problem for us." Now they are more fearful of riders on their team getting busted and I hope this will influence them to put in place their own controls. Basically a no doping policy. There is the very real possiblity more teams will adopt this stance for simple economic reasons. It doesn't make sense for teams to keep folding and reforming.

In short: pro cycling reform has got to be driven by economics.

leguape

Patrick1.0 wrote:

What's happening in Germany is very much a mark of what is to come IF the sport can't clean up. Sponsors do start pulling the plug when doping scandals are around. Whilst they can get away with it, they will turn a blind eye to doping but you can't really do that when your investment is jeopardised by it. There is also the fact that sponsors don't want to be seen as funding drug cheats, it's damging to their brand. Before the sponsors attitude was: "everybody inside the sport knows all the top guys are doping but nobody's getting caught so it's not a problem for us." Now they are more fearful of riders on their team getting busted and I hope this will influence them to put in place their own controls. Basically a no doping policy. There is the very real possiblity more teams will adopt this stance for simple economic reasons. It doesn't make sense for teams to keep folding and reforming.

In short: pro cycling reform has got to be driven by economics.

Festina may have dropped their team sponsorship, they still have their name on the TDF timing don't they? And I seem to remember there was an anecdote that their sales went up the year of the scandal.

And when companies tell you "cycling doping is damaging our brand" what they mean is "we no longer have a cycling fan running our show". It's a cop out for a slashed marketing budget. you think Deutche Telekom dropped the T-Mobile brand sponsorship for any reason other than someone pointing out that when you're wearing the thick end of several billion to recoup on 3g licences and getting hammered for brand cool by vodafone and orange, 30 million plus on cycling is a really poor investment because it's far too niche to catch mass market.

jimmythecuckoo

ddraver wrote:

Cycling is nt dead - Pro Road Cycling as we know it may be gettin there

Certainly track, BMX, XC, DH, FR - anything that can be abbreviated - is not dead

RR's :?: :!:

dennisn

method wrote:

To be honest I think you've deliberately missed the point, I've not seen anyone saying that this "heralds the end of cycling as we know it or something along those lines". All the talk is about Pro-Cycling, which does have a problem. As has been mentioned, Germany are no longer broadcasting the TDF and the Tour of Germany has been cancelled. Considering they make up a huge percentage of the viewing audience it does suggest a problem, not the end I'm sure, but a large adjustment certainly.

Yes amateur cycling is going well, there are lots of websites etc etc, no one was saying there wasn't. Personally most whining on here I've seen is from you. Everything else has been fairly reasoned debate amongst people who find this topic interesting, if you don't like it, I'm sure you can look at one of your other bookmarks.

And I quote "method" here. "Everything else has been has been a fairly reasoned debate
amongst people who......

Let me see. In the Pat Mcquaid blogs I Quote-

iainf72 - "complete idiot", "WTF"
vermooten - "what a moron"
kleber -" the guy is bonkers"
skavanagh.bikeradar - "buffoon laden head"
mididoctors - "a villain or at best a weakling"
davmartinr - "what an idiot"
patrick1.0 - "an absolute moron and a disgrace" "get some balls Pat"

"fairly reasoned debate" - oh yes I can see that. And this was only the first two pages
from that "fairly reasoned debate". Now if I were to say that you are any of the above
(which of course I'm not) I would probably get a nasty gram from the moderator, so I'm
NOT saying that you are any of the above.
"fairly reasoned...." Very well put method. :roll: :roll:

Dennis Noward

jimmythecuckoo

you gotta say its always good stuff from the Norwood!

Jez mon

Denis, i have to say, read that article and then tell me McQuaid isn't a complete an utter idiot!

As others have said, we are arguing that the sport of pro cycling is dying out.

However, RRing in the UK is under threat as well, this year we lost the Archer GP, it's also becoming harder and harder (IME) for clubs to find marshals to look after their race. Often they have to resort to asking other local clubs.

Patrick1.0

leguape wrote:

Patrick1.0 wrote:

What's happening in Germany is very much a mark of what is to come IF the sport can't clean up. Sponsors do start pulling the plug when doping scandals are around. Whilst they can get away with it, they will turn a blind eye to doping but you can't really do that when your investment is jeopardised by it. There is also the fact that sponsors don't want to be seen as funding drug cheats, it's damging to their brand. Before the sponsors attitude was: "everybody inside the sport knows all the top guys are doping but nobody's getting caught so it's not a problem for us." Now they are more fearful of riders on their team getting busted and I hope this will influence them to put in place their own controls. Basically a no doping policy. There is the very real possiblity more teams will adopt this stance for simple economic reasons. It doesn't make sense for teams to keep folding and reforming.

In short: pro cycling reform has got to be driven by economics.

Festina may have dropped their team sponsorship, they still have their name on the TDF timing don't they? And I seem to remember there was an anecdote that their sales went up the year of the scandal.

And when companies tell you "cycling doping is damaging our brand" what they mean is "we no longer have a cycling fan running our show". It's a cop out for a slashed marketing budget. you think Deutche Telekom dropped the T-Mobile brand sponsorship for any reason other than someone pointing out that when you're wearing the thick end of several billion to recoup on 3g licences and getting hammered for brand cool by vodafone and orange, 30 million plus on cycling is a really poor investment because it's far too niche to catch mass market.

But if they're not sponsoring a team, it's because they want to remove themselves from that position in the event of another dope scandal hurting their brand.

I think there are all kinds of reasons to take up and drop sponsorship but what is clear, with the Global economy as it is, is that fewer and fewer sponsors are going to be willing to invest their money in a team that might have to fold at the end of the year due to a couple of positive tests outside of team controls. It's not a good move in marketing and it's a waste of money. Money which is a lot thinner on the gorund than in the past. The sponsors when approaching these teams will start to look at assurances of clean performances and ways of ensuring those assurances.

Again, I see more and more new sponsorship deals looking for exactly that. Look at Garmin and Columbia, for example, I am sure the proposed British Tour De France team for 2010 and whatever sponsorship they secure will be in a similar agreement.

leguape

Patrick1.0 wrote:

leguape wrote:

Patrick1.0 wrote:

What's happening in Germany is very much a mark of what is to come IF the sport can't clean up. Sponsors do start pulling the plug when doping scandals are around. Whilst they can get away with it, they will turn a blind eye to doping but you can't really do that when your investment is jeopardised by it. There is also the fact that sponsors don't want to be seen as funding drug cheats, it's damging to their brand. Before the sponsors attitude was: "everybody inside the sport knows all the top guys are doping but nobody's getting caught so it's not a problem for us." Now they are more fearful of riders on their team getting busted and I hope this will influence them to put in place their own controls. Basically a no doping policy. There is the very real possiblity more teams will adopt this stance for simple economic reasons. It doesn't make sense for teams to keep folding and reforming.

In short: pro cycling reform has got to be driven by economics.

Festina may have dropped their team sponsorship, they still have their name on the TDF timing don't they? And I seem to remember there was an anecdote that their sales went up the year of the scandal.

And when companies tell you "cycling doping is damaging our brand" what they mean is "we no longer have a cycling fan running our show". It's a cop out for a slashed marketing budget. you think Deutche Telekom dropped the T-Mobile brand sponsorship for any reason other than someone pointing out that when you're wearing the thick end of several billion to recoup on 3g licences and getting hammered for brand cool by vodafone and orange, 30 million plus on cycling is a really poor investment because it's far too niche to catch mass market.

But if they're not sponsoring a team, it's because they want to remove themselves from that position in the event of another dope scandal hurting their brand.

I think there are all kinds of reasons to take up and drop sponsorship but what is clear, with the Global economy as it is, is that fewer and fewer sponsors are going to be willing to invest their money in a team that might have to fold at the end of the year due to a couple of positive tests outside of team controls. It's not a good move in marketing and it's a waste of money. Money which is a lot thinner on the gorund than in the past. The sponsors when approaching these teams will start to look at assurances of clean performances and ways of ensuring those assurances.

Again, I see more and more new sponsorship deals looking for exactly that. Look at Garmin and Columbia, for example, I am sure the proposed British Tour De France team for 2010 and whatever sponsorship they secure will be in a similar agreement.

Sorry, but I disagree.

Garmin = worldwide biggest GPS device manufacturer but 3rd in Europe, Pro Racing focuses in the European market.
Columbia = big american brand with low market penetration in Europe again seeking to expand market share.

You commit marketing spend on an annual basis and you'll do your due diligence.

Let's face it sponsors leaving the sport this year have been around for far longer than you'd expect most deals to last - about 25 years between CA and Gerolsteiner alone. T-Mobile? Deutsche Telekom/T-Mobile had seen all the eyeballs and brand awareness they were going to get from the sport in the territories they'd targeted and had been moving to leave the sport long before it became about doping scandals. Saunier Duval were probably as relieved as anyone that they got an out without having to look like the bad guys.

The only change I see happening is sponsors ceasing to be from flooring manufacturers and peasant banks (Caisse, Credit) and coming from new territories or companies trying to grow European market share. And using doping as an excuse to put less in for the same massive marketing return that it represents.

dennisn

Jez mon wrote:

As others have said, we are arguing that the sport of pro cycling is dying out.

I seem to recall a fairly new pro race "down under". Here in the U.S. it seems that new
pro races are really starting to come on line. I haven't heard of a single major pro race in Europe that has folded, never to be seen again(i.e. Amstel, Milan-San Remo, etc.). And
what about all those new pro races in the "far east" and even in the "desert kingdoms"?
There are more pro races than there ever has been.
No, I think you're making this more of this than it is. Plain and simple. Somehow, someway, you have got it in your head that all of this is just horrible and everybody
associated with it is horrible when in reality and looking at the big picture it's guy's
doing drugs to be better at sports and the governing bodies are starting to say no,
but it's a tough job trying to root out cheats and at the same time not find yourself in
court facing slander charges. People do have rights you know. And you should know this because in some countries you're not allowed to SAY bad things about certain
subjects(i.e. politics, religion, government leaders). You're lucky, you have a bit of freedom and can generally speak your mind. I would urge all of you to use a bit of restraint when using this freedom and show some respect for other human beings.
Not everyone is a stupid, lying, cheating, son of a.......

Dennis Noward

Patrick1.0

dennisn wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

As others have said, we are arguing that the sport of pro cycling is dying out.

I seem to recall a fairly new pro race "down under". Here in the U.S. it seems that new
pro races are really starting to come on line. I haven't heard of a single major pro race in Europe that has folded, never to be seen again(i.e. Amstel, Milan-San Remo, etc.). And
what about all those new pro races in the "far east" and even in the "desert kingdoms"?
There are more pro races than there ever has been.
No, I think you're making this more of this than it is. Plain and simple. Somehow, someway, you have got it in your head that all of this is just horrible and everybody
associated with it is horrible when in reality and looking at the big picture it's guy's
doing drugs to be better at sports and the governing bodies are starting to say no,
but it's a tough job trying to root out cheats and at the same time not find yourself in
court facing slander charges. People do have rights you know. And you should know this because in some countries you're not allowed to SAY bad things about certain
subjects(i.e. politics, religion, government leaders). You're lucky, you have a bit of freedom and can generally speak your mind. I would urge all of you to use a bit of restraint when using this freedom and show some respect for other human beings.
Not everyone is a stupid, lying, cheating, son of a.......

Dennis Noward

Mr Common Sense died a long time ago, he is outlived by his step brothers and sisters: I Know My Rights, It Was Somebody Else's Fault and You Can't Blame Me. Mr Common Sense will be buried next to his sister, Responsibility and in the same cemetery as his parents, Trust and Honesty.

andyp

dennisn wrote:

I seem to recall a fairly new pro race "down under". Here in the U.S. it seems that new
pro races are really starting to come on line. I haven't heard of a single major pro race in Europe that has folded, never to be seen again(i.e. Amstel, Milan-San Remo, etc.). And
what about all those new pro races in the "far east" and even in the "desert kingdoms"?
There are more pro races than there ever has been.

Remember the Tour du Pont? Or the San Francisco GP? Or the Midi-Libre? The GP des Nations maybe? Or Bordeaux-Paris?

More recently, remember the Deutschland Tour?

Lots of pro races have gone to the wall in recent years, some of which have a long and well established history.

dennisn

andyp wrote:

dennisn wrote:

I seem to recall a fairly new pro race "down under". Here in the U.S. it seems that new
pro races are really starting to come on line. I haven't heard of a single major pro race in Europe that has folded, never to be seen again(i.e. Amstel, Milan-San Remo, etc.). And
what about all those new pro races in the "far east" and even in the "desert kingdoms"?
There are more pro races than there ever has been.

Remember the Tour du Pont? Or the San Francisco GP? Or the Midi-Libre? The GP des Nations maybe? Or Bordeaux-Paris?

More recently, remember the Deutschland Tour?

Lots of pro races have gone to the wall in recent years, some of which have a long and well established history.

I grant you that I don't keep up that well with the numbers of pro races. It just seemed
to me that whenever I read the cycling rags there is talk of new races here and there.
As for races getting cancelled or closed down, this happens in all sports. Teams fold,
new teams are formed, out with the old and in with the new. Nothing stays as it is
forever. I would have to put my money on there being more races now than in years
past. Looking out there it also seems that the "season" is getting longer. Add to that the fact that now it also seems that a lot of the races are scheduled in the same time slots
simply because there aren't any more available dates. The teams and riders have much more to pick from. As far as I'm concerned it's a great time to be a Pro rider. Lots of race choices and lots of teams to race for.

Dennis Noward

blazing_saddles

dennisn wrote:

I haven't heard of a single major pro race in Europe that has folded, never to be seen again.
Dennis Noward

That says it all.
As it's already been pointed out. Add the list, the Classique des Alps, The Tour of Aragon.
If none of the above mentioned count, in your book, Dennis, add the GP Zurich. That was a WC "classic" along the Amstel line, until just two years ago.

A lot of races are walking a tightrope. The Dauphine Libere is already financially strapped.

From your neck of the woods. The Tour of Georgia is on the point of folding. Sponsorless, unless the lure of LA has encouraged someone to stump up the cash.

aurelio_-_banned

In many ways pro cycling as it once was is already dead. Not that long ago every other village in France, Belgium and so on had it`s own pro race every year, often as part of the after-Tour criterium circuit. These races were the true life-blood of the sport, bringing the racing to the doorsteps of the people - who turned out en-mass to watch - even if it was the national tours and `monuments` which created the legends. Now these races are all but gone, along with many of the winter 6-Day events and countless second-string pro events, such as those which were held along the Mediterranean coast in the early season.

Increasingly the pro circus amounts to little more than the few `major` events which attract TV coverage and so are still viable commercial propositions. That is, the racing is no longer supported by the old-school road-side fan but is merely an excuse to flog advertising space on TV and as such cannot be used as a gauge of how healthy or otherwise the sport really is.

A few races still attract large crowds at the road side, most notably the Tour, but many pro races are becoming embarrassingly bereft of road-side fans. I went to one of my major local pro events this year, the Dauphine, and although there was the usual high-profile management of the stage finish, with miles of barriers and so on, the `crowds` at the finish I saw could have been controlled by a couple of barriers and a single gendarme!

Amateur events seem to be even more badly affected. One regional race I went to see, which had an international field and finished in a local town, attracted perhaps a dozen spectators, including my daughter and myself!

Again just look at how few riders are coming into the sport as youngsters. Apparently the club Bernard Hinault used to ride for used to have over 200 active racing cyclists, now it has a handful. Similarly, I can recall racing in the UK as a schoolboy when criteriums attracting 40 or more riders were held around the local parks and every race report in Cycling magazine used to carry a separate results section for the schoolboys. Much the same seems to be true even in the USA, with Lemond stating in one interview that, despite the low profile of the sport in the US back when he was a junior, there were actually far more juniors racing in his day than there are now.

aurelio_-_banned

Blazing Saddles wrote:

dennisn wrote:

I haven't heard of a single major pro race in Europe that has folded, never to be seen again.
Dennis Noward

That says it all.

Quite so. Proof, as if it were needed, that DN knows about as much about the sport of cycling and it`s history as I do about American Football...

mididoctors

and the Midi

and the Setmana

those 1 week stage races are taking a hit in the last decade

aurelio_-_banned

leguape wrote:

The only change I see happening is sponsors ceasing to be from flooring manufacturers and peasant banks (Caisse, Credit)...

Peasant banks? Well, if you to advertise your ignorance (or prejudice) what better place to do it than on a public forum? :roll: Credit Agricole is actually the second largest bank in Europe and the eighth largest in the world...

You seem to be trying to argue that getting sponsors is a good measure of the health of cycling as sport, rather than being simply an indication of how TV coverage of just about any event will attract someone looking for an advertising opportunity. If so then does the sponsorship of other sports also show that the sport concerned is in good health and has a booming grass-roots fan and participation base? Consider the example of Kellogs who dropped their support of the Tour of Britain in order to sponsor the Gladiators series...

aurelio_-_banned

dennisn wrote:

Much has been written on this forum about the pro doping problem and the Lance problem. Both of which are said(by more than a few people) to herald the end of cycling as we know it or something along those lines...I think times are great and here's why.

dennisn wrote:

1.) The Pro racing calender has more races on it than ever before.

Perhaps we should list all those pro events which are no longer held, including criteriums, 6-Day races and so on, so DN can see just how ill-informed his view actually are... It would be reasonable to add on all those top-level amateur events which no longer exist as well, given that these would now be deemed to be `elite` category events.

dennisn wrote:

There are more tours, amateur and club racing, and organized rides than ever.

This certainly isn`t the case for Britain and most of Europe, at least when it comes to racing. The number of racing cyclists in Britain is now so low that they can`t even sustain a magazine dedicated to the sport, with Cycling Weekly now having to exist by pandering almost exclusively to `sportif` riders.

dennisn wrote:

... no one told the manufacturers that cycling was dead.

Who has ever argued that? Straw men are easy targets to attack... :roll: Plenty of people cycle for health and enjoyment, but the sport of competitive cycling itself, especially at the pro level, is far from healthy...

dennisn wrote:

30 years ago myself and a few friends were the only riders out there. Now no matter where you are you tend to see riders. More commuting, more local rides and races.

In the UK for one levels of cycle commuting have plummeted over the last 30 years, with the exception of a few places like London where a bit of `Leftist social engineering` has encouraged cycling.

Patrick1.0

dennisn wrote:

andyp wrote:

dennisn wrote:

I seem to recall a fairly new pro race "down under". Here in the U.S. it seems that new
pro races are really starting to come on line. I haven't heard of a single major pro race in Europe that has folded, never to be seen again(i.e. Amstel, Milan-San Remo, etc.). And
what about all those new pro races in the "far east" and even in the "desert kingdoms"?
There are more pro races than there ever has been.

Remember the Tour du Pont? Or the San Francisco GP? Or the Midi-Libre? The GP des Nations maybe? Or Bordeaux-Paris?

More recently, remember the Deutschland Tour?

Lots of pro races have gone to the wall in recent years, some of which have a long and well established history.

I grant you that I don't keep up that well with the numbers of pro races. It just seemed
to me that whenever I read the cycling rags there is talk of new races here and there.
As for races getting cancelled or closed down, this happens in all sports. Teams fold,
new teams are formed, out with the old and in with the new. Nothing stays as it is
forever. I would have to put my money on there being more races now than in years
past. Looking out there it also seems that the "season" is getting longer. Add to that the fact that now it also seems that a lot of the races are scheduled in the same time slots
simply because there aren't any more available dates. The teams and riders have much more to pick from. As far as I'm concerned it's a great time to be a Pro rider. Lots of race choices and lots of teams to race for.

Dennis Noward

Americans are quite insular, in general Dennis :roll: .

In this country (England) it is extremely difficult to organise a rolling road closure, let alone the full job. More and more crits disappear each and every year and I don't see anything in terms of cold, hard figures to suggest that more people are taking up the sport. I can only guess the opposite.

richard wants a baum

crap double post x 3 :oops:

richard wants a baum

:oops:

richard wants a baum

:oops:

richard wants a baum

You can always rely on dennis to throw a comment in that gets everyones ( well most ppls) backs up. The TDU is succesfull because Australian cycling is going very well at the moment (well the roadies are our track boys and girls are struggling a little) and as yet no major australian cyclist has been caught doping. Its also heavily supported by the state govt.

Pro cycling is in a world of trouble, due mainly to its funny belief that unlike other sports it want to find name and shame riders caught doping. This unfortunatley has created some crediblity issues. Cycling in australia is on the rise and from what you have said the same seems to be happening in america. The old world boys seem to be having the opposite occuring which is probably because pro cycling has for the most part been a very euro. thing. After a hundred years or so of scandal its having an effect.

Lastly if you dont like ppl calling other ppl names im a bit suprised that you bother going onto forums as there seems to be a fair bit of that on every forum ive ever read
Just a quick note you do seem to come across very condescending it might help to tone that down a bit or not whatever floats your boat.