Cull of Team Management

dave_1

Who to remove? For me Bruyneel and Riis should leave the sport forthwith. Sean Yates in charge of Astana? Aldag and Holm should jog off-they are not what's needed. Can people involved in the 1990s be trusted with its future?

aarw

why Sean Yates?

phil s

Out of interest, why should Holm and Aldag jog off? Apart from their misdemeanours as riders is there anything they have done or any attitude they adopt in their current roles that is detrimental to the development of their young charges?

6288

Riis yes, history of doping in team and also himself ...

Bruyneel ... did he ever fail a dope test? has anyone in any of the teams he's been in charge of failed a dope test?

why does every topic on here have to have a go at lance and/or associates. ... and its not i'm a lance fanboy ... i'm just want to read a topic without this shit in it!

LangerDan

If you head down that road, you need to remove every doctor, deputy DS, soigneur and mechanic involved with the pro teams to ensure there is no risk. Complicity in doping was never restricted just to the DS.

However, if you accept that, for example, Garmin or Columbia are riding clean this year then it must be possible for former dopers and the associated support staff to change their habits or at least have them controlled. Why shouldn't the same be the case for Bruyneel or Riis?

The problem is that while the ability to manage a doping programme may have been a fundamental part of a managers function, its not the only one. The respected DS's also seem to be the ones who are best organised, ensure that the team logistics are looked after, maintain ongoing contact with the riders, deal with sponsors etc. Unfortunately appreciating most of that only comes from experience. You could land some 25 y.o. into Bjarnes job and be sure that he'd have a more "pure" view of the sport, untained by having spent most of the 90s with a needle in an arm.. You could also bet that the team would be an organisational disaster within a couple of months.

Kléber

It's like some rule on here, all those with post counts under 100 on here seem to defend a lot of riders. 6288, Bruyneel was for a long time, the holder of the "winner of the fastest Tour stage ever" for some time. Now he escaped and sat on Indurain's wheel in a romp across the Ardennes, a free tow but he's ex ONCE and more. Open your eyes. By the time you get to >1000 posts, you want to close your eyes as you realise so much of the show is just that, a show. It ain't always sport.

I'd allow existing management to work only if they confessed and apologised. This would simply allow many to keep an eye on them and to allow potential sponsors to judge who they are dealing with. For example, Mauro Gianetti can claim "I never tested positive" but it's openly on the internet that he nearly died after experimenting with with wacky blood doping practices. Or look around, Gianetti today employs the former Lampre team doctor, the man who used to help the likes of Rumsas. These people simply wouldn't pass a "fit and proper" test.

We need better standards.

dave_1

LangerDan wrote:

If you head down that road, you need to remove every doctor, deputy DS, soigneur and mechanic involved with the pro teams to ensure there is no risk. Complicity in doping was never restricted just to the DS.

However, if you accept that, for example, Garmin or Columbia are riding clean this year then it must be possible for former dopers and the associated support staff to change their habits or at least have them controlled

Keep 60% and the others for their organisational skills learned as pros- eh...just how diifficult is it to book some digs and plane tickets, source some light bike parts, predict when to attack- when races are the same format every single year and eh drive a car at 25 mph all day telling guys who have led for 10 years on the bike what they already know? It's a cushy easy job being DS. It's who they sign up. It's the shady characters they are connected to as well from their own past.

And what I really hate is the reformed ex pro-ex doper who enriched himself from doping, made good money-very easy to suddenly be anti doping when you've secured your future through the earnings made from doping. Would they be so anti-doping if they were poor and could see a way to win? They were dishonest. Aldag, Holm, jog on! And EZ for that matter- should he be thinking of such a career

dave_1

6288 wrote:

Riis yes, history of doping in team and also himself ...

Bruyneel ... did he ever fail a dope test? has anyone in any of the teams he's been in charge of failed a dope test?

why does every topic on here have to have a go at lance and/or associates. ... and its not i'm a lance fanboy ... i'm just want to read a topic without this shoot in it!

Zulle explained what ONCE did. Why pick only on Riis when Aldag and Holm did it too. At least Skibby and Lilholt are not involved now after their confessions. Holm has recovered from Cancer I read and perhaps has been punished a little by nature for taking from his body what it did not have?

DavMartinR

I think its about time all the support staff on the teams were handed out bans as well as the riders.

If a team has 2 postives in the team then the DS, Doctor,soigneur and mechanic should get a 2yr ban.

I know this isn't going to stop riders doping, but it will put pressure on the support staff to keep a closer eye their riders,knowing that there jobs are also on the line.

dave_1

DavMartinR wrote:

I think its about time all the support staff on the teams were handed out bans as well as the riders.

If a team has 2 postives in the team then the DS, Doctor,soigneur and mechanic should get a 2yr ban.

I know this isn't going to stop riders doping, but it will put pressure on the support staff to keep a closer eye their riders,knowing that there jobs are also on the line.

Good posting. Indeed the DS should be taken out for a year. How about some of Astana's support staff, one has previous conviction and is logistics manager. I watched the bruyneel interview on velonews re Vino and IMO it looks like Bruyneel would sign him aftre the UCI ban. Should have been NO but Bruyneel cuts ex dopers too much slack like others-e.g this liquigas shower

cougie

I agree with a lot of this stuff - but its a bit much to ban the mechanics - thats like kicking the cat. Doctors, Soigneurs, bosses - yeah. Mechanics seem busy enough preparing the bikes without needing time to check the guys arent doing anything untoward.

(although fitting a 63t chainring may arouse suspicion)

dave_1

Kléber wrote:

It's like some rule on here, all those with post counts under 100 on here seem to defend a lot of riders. 6288, Bruyneel was for a long time, the holder of the "winner of the fastest Tour stage ever" for some time. Now he escaped and sat on Indurain's wheel in a romp across the Ardennes, a free tow but he's ex ONCE and more. Open your eyes. By the time you get to >1000 posts, you want to close your eyes as you realise so much of the show is just that, a show. It ain't always sport.

I'd allow existing management to work only if they confessed and apologised. This would simply allow many to keep an eye on them and to allow potential sponsors to judge who they are dealing with. For example, Mauro Gianetti can claim "I never tested positive" but it's openly on the internet that he nearly died after experimenting with with wacky blood doping practices. Or look around, Gianetti today employs the former Lampre team doctor, the man who used to help the likes of Rumsas. These people simply wouldn't pass a "fit and proper" test.

We need better standards.

Well said Kleber. Gianetti is not fit for his role

Noodley

Kléber wrote:

We need better standards.

We do indeed.

dave_1

6288 wrote:

Riis yes, history of doping in team and also himself ...

Bruyneel ... did he ever fail a dope test? has anyone in any of the teams he's been in charge of failed a dope test?

why does every topic on here have to have a go at lance and/or associates. ... and its not i'm a lance fanboy ... i'm just want to read a topic without this shoot in it!

It's not a Lance thread...fire the colmbia management and ex Saunier chap. Gianetti doped and should not be in the sport. Marc Madiot? The stories via Wiggins of Yvon's thoughts on Kimmage made me wonder. And Madiot dismissed Kimmage in 1990-Saint Marc, guilty of Omerta at the time?

timoid.

Dave_1 wrote:

6288 wrote:

Riis yes, history of doping in team and also himself ...

Bruyneel ... did he ever fail a dope test? has anyone in any of the teams he's been in charge of failed a dope test?

why does every topic on here have to have a go at lance and/or associates. ... and its not i'm a lance fanboy ... i'm just want to read a topic without this shoot in it!

It's not a Lance thread...fire the colmbia management and ex Saunier chap. Gianetti doped and should not be in the sport. Marc Madiot? The stories via Wiggins of Yvon's thoughts on Kimmage made me wonder. And Madiot dismissed Kimmage in 1990-Saint Marc, guilty of Omerta at the time?

Madiot is a reformed character and has done a lot of good for the sport. Can't agree with you on this one.

Columbia seem to be doing the right thing. Would you turf Vaughters as an ex doper?

Agree with getting rid of creeps like Gianetti and Lefevre, but there has to be some sense behind it.

dennisn

Kléber wrote:

I'd allow existing management to work only if they confessed and apologised.we need better standards.

Exactly who has to confess? And to what? Anyone even remotely connected to a cycling team? Who decides who has to confess? What if they confess to not doing
anything that you want them to confess to doing but haven't done? How do "we" know
that their confession is the truth or a false confession? A bit of torture maybe, first to
make sure that they confess and then a bit more of the thumbscrew to be sure they are
telling the truth?. I think the only real answer is cleansing by fire after they confess.
These people are innately evil and like the witches of old must be dealt with sternly and
with finality. It worked back then and it will work now. You don't see any witches around these days do you?

Dennis Noward

timoid.

dennisn wrote:

You don't see any witches around these days do you?

Nope. But still see plenty of trolls

Monty Dog

Timoid. wrote:

dennisn wrote:

You don't see any witches around these days do you?

Nope. But still see plenty of trolls

dave_1

Monty Dog wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

dennisn wrote:

You don't see any witches around these days do you?

Nope. But still see plenty of trolls

You look up to these teams, have seen your postings over the years re classics and the team tactics you note- implied respect for whoever it was in the team car following whichever Belgian won. What do you think? More dope testing, target testing only or also remove people who have strong links to doping?

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

It's like some rule on here, all those with post counts under 100 on here Open your eyes. By the time you get to >1000 posts, you want to close your eyes as you realise so much of the show is just that, a show. It ain't always sport.


We need better standards.

Its quite laughable really, to witness a poster think he is somehow more knowledgeable because of his post count..............i mean ffs ........lol



cheers
MG

Kléber

It was a joke

I was just saying suddenly there seem to be a lot of newcomers and we see them defending all the riders from doping allegations whereas some of us "older" posters are a bit more cynical, that's all. Sorry if it sounded condescending, I didn't mean it that way!

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

It was a joke

I was just saying suddenly there seem to be a lot of newcomers and we see them defending all the riders from doping allegations whereas some of us "older" posters are a bit more cynical, that's all. Sorry if it sounded condescending, I didn't mean it that way!

No probs you dont need to say sorry folks can say what they want it just seemed a wee bit condescending but if you say it wasnt meant to be like that then fair enough.

cheers
MG

vermooten

Not sure if I go with the "once a sinner, always a sinner" approach. It's a bit too much like the Daily Mail's view of kiddy fiddlers: they're evil from within, it's in their DNA, there's no redemption possible (ever), the best we can do is burn them all so that the evil is destroyed forever.

Reminds me of one of my ex-colleagues whose director-level view of fixing problemmatic IT systems is to buy in something brand new and switch the old one off as soon as possible. Guess what, within 12 months the same problems start to appear in the new system.


Time for bed.

emadden

6288 wrote:

Riis yes, history of doping in team and also himself ...

Bruyneel ... did he ever fail a dope test? has anyone in any of the teams he's been in charge of failed a dope test?

why does every topic on here have to have a go at lance and/or associates. ... and its not i'm a lance fanboy ... i'm just want to read a topic without this shoot in it!

Bruyneel took over a team that was dirtier than muck. I dont care if the "management" is different - The backers are the same and half the team are from the "old astana"... On top of that almost every one of Lacey-pansey's disco teammates has been done for cheating, with the exception of a small tiny few

Squaggles

Gianetti , in charge of the squeaky clean Saunier Duval team .
A bunch of fans on an internet site can probably agree on most of the people who should never be let loose near young riders , surely people involved in running the sport can work it out . The fact they haven't done anything about is more due to the fact they don't really want to do anything about it .

Patrick1.0

Squaggles wrote:

Gianetti , in charge of the squeaky clean Saunier Duval team .
A bunch of fans on an internet site can probably agree on most of the people who should never be let loose near young riders , surely people involved in running the sport can work it out . The fact they haven't done anything about is more due to the fact they don't really want to do anything about it .

I think more the case that it is difficult to do anything about it. We all know. The commentators on Eurosport know when to suspect a rider of being dirty and which teams are dirtier than others but they can't say anything. Many of the riders and their team managers know, but they can't say anything either. When you stop somebody from doing their job, you have to have a very good reason especially when it's not you that is paying them to do that job. The sponsors are the real problem. If they're happy with ex druggy so and so running their team and carrying on the same old tricks and traditions he learned in his time in competitive cycling then who can step in?

ACMadone

6288 wrote:

Riis yes, history of doping in team and also himself ...

Bruyneel ... did he ever fail a dope test? has anyone in any of the teams he's been in charge of failed a dope test?

why does every topic on here have to have a go at lance and/or associates. ... and its not i'm a lance fanboy ... i'm just want to read a topic without this shoot in it!

Couldn't agree with you there. I'm not a LA fan (used to be) will admit to being a Contador fan, but it's roll back 1999/2000/2001/2002/2003/2004/2005 and bring up the same old dirt!!
Bruyneel may or maynot be dirty, but there's no evidence to suggest this. So why won't people accept that quite simply he's the greatest Director of the last 9 years!!

ACMadone

Although on a slightly differnet note, maybe not because he's technically part owner, who thinks David Millar is now clean?

Noodley

Madiot has shown he is now changed. Others have not. Evidence of change is required. Riis still thinks nobody cares if he cheated to win the Tour. Twat.

LangerDan

Dave_1 wrote:

LangerDan wrote:

If you head down that road, you need to remove every doctor, deputy DS, soigneur and mechanic involved with the pro teams to ensure there is no risk. Complicity in doping was never restricted just to the DS.

However, if you accept that, for example, Garmin or Columbia are riding clean this year then it must be possible for former dopers and the associated support staff to change their habits or at least have them controlled

Keep 60% and the others for their organisational skills learned as pros- eh...just how diifficult is it to book some digs and plane tickets, source some light bike parts, predict when to attack- when races are the same format every single year and eh drive a car at 25 mph all day telling guys who have led for 10 years on the bike what they already know? It's a cushy easy job being DS. It's who they sign up. It's the shady characters they are connected to as well from their own past.

If its so easy, how come so many mangers have made a complete bollox of things over the years? 60% hasn't keep his job because he knew the contact details for Sneaky Fox and Pepsi Frank all these years. Riders themselves have proved that it is possible to procure and administer drugs themselves without any involvement from team management so it can be reasonably assumed that managers must have some othe purpose than just providing the EPO and syringes. (And don't forget that some of the brightest stars in the cycling firmament are completely incapable of making a single racing decision without some bloke in a car shouting down an earpiece.) The unfortunate thing is that for every Bob Stapleton who comes in from outside the sport , there is a Manolo Saiz, so talent from outside the ranks doesn't always work.

It would be nice if the sport could remove some of these individuals from its ranks, but I don't think its going to happen. Perhaps the UCI might make itself a little less useless and demand a "method statement" from every DS, outlining exactly how the team is to be run, its anti doping policy and how it is to be admimistered, how neo-pros will be introduced to the team, how it controls the whereabouts of the riders. These statements would be made available to anyone who wishes to see them - riders, officials, journalists, forumites.The DS or teams can then be measured against their stated commitments and if they fail to comply, no "licence to practice".

dennisn

Noodley wrote:

Riis still thinks nobody cares if he cheated to win the Tour. fool.

Riis has told you this????

Dennis Noward