Speeding Cyclist

jackfeeder

Got into work this morning and was advised by the health and safety rep that last friday someone had reported a speeding cyclist on site - Result!
Part of me is obviously pleased with the tag of speeding cyclist whilst the other part wants to find the snitcher responsible and tell them not be so ******* childish.
Mind you the speed limit is only 10 mph on site which is not quite so impressive.

Almost had my most serious crash yesterday whilst out and about - didn't wear my helmet as I didn't intend doing any serious road work (sustrans cycle route was the plan) - felt good so changed my route. Towards the end of my ride accelerating down a hill - two cars in front of me. They braked suddenly for the car two in front to turn right into their drive. No way of stopping in time - faced with either going headfirst into the back of a Landrover Discovery (not good at 30mph with no helmet) or take a chance and overtake them on the right side whilst hoping the car didn't turn in time and knock me into the car coming down the opposite side of the road. :shock:
Just got through the rapidly decreasing gap in time to much horn blowing and gesturing and carried on with an apologetic wave. :oops:
Shook me up a bit, told my wife and she said what were you going so fast for??????????? Isn't that the point?
Didn't tell her that I was helmetless mind and next time I won't be.
No doubt the people in the cars were banging on about b***** cyclists, dangerous t**** etc etc and they would be right but I really didn't have another option.
So if you are a beginning roadie then please consider wearing a lid and be aware of vehicles doing something unexpected - otherwise it could end up very nasty! :oops:
On the plus side though I was impressed with my bike handling skills and reactions under pressure - hopefully not to be repeated in the near future!

feel

A timely reminder to always be prepared for the unexpected. In reality you were travelling too fast for the braking performance of your bicycle. Something i would suspect that most cyclists are doing when they are going downhill at speeds in excess of 25mph.

derekwatts

feel wrote:

Something i would suspect that most cyclists are doing when they are going downhill at speeds in excess of 25mph.

Eh???? :?

feel

derekwatts wrote:

feel wrote:

Something i would suspect that most cyclists are doing when they are going downhill at speeds in excess of 25mph.

Eh???? :?

Am referring to braking performance


most brakes on bicycles are so poor that you could be in traffic going down hill and if the car in front of you does an emergency stop ( or even stops relatively quickly) you will be in the back of it unless there is space up the inside or as in jackfeeder's case down the outside. Compared to a motorbike that can go fast, has significant engine braking and can outbrake a car anyway. Therefore the motorbike can go faster down the hill and more safely.

toshmund

Think you are missing the point of the activity!? What is the solution then? Maximum speed limit?

Motorway speed limit was set at 70 mph, because that was the safe distance headlights of the day could effectively shine. Ford Anglia, I think - could be/most probably wrong...Read the road, all you can do - although you cannot account for the unexpected. Finally, it is a sad way to live a life with the epitaph "What if...?"

STEFANOS4784

I would like to add that my bike could stop in an instant, however i probably would not.....

feel

Toshmund wrote:

Think you are missing the point of the activity!? What is the solution then? Maximum speed limit?

Motorway speed limit was set at 70 mph, because that was the safe distance headlights of the day could effectively shine. Ford Anglia, I think - could be/most probably wrong...Read the road, all you can do - although you cannot account for the unexpected. Finally, it is a sad way to live a life with the epitaph "What if...?"

For me the point of the activity is to keep fit and healthy and enjoy the ride.

Not for a moment am i suggesting that people should not do what they want to do. Think that people should know the limit of their equipment though. For me - my imagination goes into overdrive at speeds over 30mph and 40mph usually has me braking quite hard just in case one of those "what if" scenarios actually does happen even though the road is fairly straight and clear. Never used them on a bicycle but suspect that discs could greatly outperform conventional dual pivot brakes. Isn't it just the racing rules that stops them being widely adopted on ordinary road bikes? If so it seems stupid that people who will never race are being denied effective brakes.

unclemalc

I posted this originally in 'Commuting' this am, but it seems apt here also....from recent past:

I'm doing 28mph going past the traffic camera. He's doing 30mph. After getting 10yds in front the brake lights go on and he flashes left. Choices:
i) try and cut into the left corner alongside him (no, he'll go over me; besides it's too fast);
ii) go around him to the right (no: oncoming traffic will get me);
iii) go into his boot.
I chose the latter, trusting in the helmet and a shoulder charge - that should also save the bike...
Trouble was, I was clipped in so right leg gets twisted and I'm on my face with the bike on top of me and a feeling like I could have done my hip badly. :shock:
He has got out of the car and is standing there in his flat cap and driving gloves - every inch the 80yr old sunday driver. :evil:
So I am lying in the middle of the road and I think "Sod it, hold up the traffic, lets get some blue lights here so I can get some witnesses".
Which I did. I got a day in A&E and a couple of weeks on crutches with a twisted hip. He got an official police warning and a compulsory retest ...

I like cycling helmets.

graeme_s-2

In the first incident the problem wasn't the speed, or braking performance. The problem was the cyclist was tailgating the car in front. You can quite safely do 30 or 40 miles an hour down a hill with traffic doing similar speeds so long as you're leaving a big enough gap in front to allow you to stop should the car in front pull an emergency stop.

Dess1e

Comments re brake performance are not correct. Most modern DP brakes will still be able to lock your wheels up above 25 MPH. The limitation is the tyres, as locked wheels don't decelerate the bike and rider as quickly as controlled braking. Discs wouldn't be much of an improvement except perhaps in the wet.

John.T

Graeme has it right. It is your responsibility to be able to stop in time no matter what the idiot in front does. It also makes sense as hitting him hurts.

graeme_s-2

Oh - and I don't intend to sound all "holier than thou" about this, as I have once very gently rear ended a 4x4 at low speed (literally just touched their bumper with my tyre), and have had a few scary moments where I've caught myself out and not been sure I was going to stop in time. But I know that those incidents were my fault, and I've made a greater effort to leave a sufficient gap to the vehicle in front of me at all times.

feel

Hope you are ok now. This sort of driving seems to happen quite regularly :evil: They wouldn't overtake a car then brake to turn so why do it to a bicycle? The government want to promote cycling yet this is just the sort of thing that puts people off. I think it's about time they had a tv ad campaign to get other road users to think about bicycles (we get "think bike" for motorcycles) and so give them more time and space, afterall every bicycle riders is reducing congestion.

Going back to my point - if this had happened to you in a small car or on a motorbike you would have been annoyed at the bad driving but you would have been able to stop in time, but on your bike you are left with no real options. Reducing your initial speed would not really be the answer because the whole scenario could just have easily been played out at lower speeds.Better driving by the the other road user would work ( unfortunately there are always likely to be idiots) but so would better performance from the bicycles brakes.
I am not quite sure why bicycle stopping distances are so relatively poor - is it to do with the high centre of gravity for a cyclist wanting to tip you over the bars, or is that just poor use of the front brake compared to the back brake? Anti-lock brakes anyone?

John.T

Feel. You are definately right about driver standards but until they improve we have to think of self preservation.
As regards brakes, I can lock my wheels to the point of skidding or tipping over the front (depending on road conditions) with my current brakes. The problem is the relatively high centre of gravity which makes the bike difficult to control with the brakes hard on. ABS would not help. It can actually increase stopping distances in a car and is designed to stop wheels from locking so you can still steer. It is fitted to some motorcycles but thay have a lower C of G with much more weight low down and also much more tyre friction. Anything on 2 wheels is much harder to control when leaned over in a corner with the brakes on so this should be avoided if at all possible.

jackfeeder

Graeme_S wrote:

Oh - and I don't intend to sound all "holier than thou" about this, as I have once very gently rear ended a 4x4 at low speed (literally just touched their bumper with my tyre), and have had a few scary moments where I've caught myself out and not been sure I was going to stop in time. But I know that those incidents were my fault, and I've made a greater effort to leave a sufficient gap to the vehicle in front of me at all times.

Yep - you live and learn (hopefully). Most of the time I (and other cyclists) are pretty safe as being on the road is a dangerous place to be sometimes. But there are times when you lose concentraion or get a bit carried away and those are the times when you are most vulnerable. Hopefuly I'll learn from my mistake and seeing as I don't particularly want my wife + 2 daughters visiting me in hospital, especially if it is self inflicted to a certain degree form something that I enjoy and is supposed to keep me fit.

feel

Graeme_S wrote:

You can quite safely do 30 or 40 miles an hour down a hill with traffic doing similar speeds so long as you're leaving a big enough gap in front to allow you to stop should the car in front pull an emergency stop.

Hi Graeme, one of the problems is that the b*****s overtake you into that gap and then start hugging the kerb :evil: . Definitely think the government needs to educate car drivers about what it is like to be on a bicycle.

feel

John.T wrote:

.
As regards brakes, I can lock my wheels to the point of skidding or tipping over the front (depending on road conditions) with my current brakes. The problem is the relatively high centre of gravity which makes the bike difficult to control with the brakes hard on. ABS would not help. It can actually increase stopping distances in a car and is designed to stop wheels from locking so you can still steer. It is fitted to some motorcycles but thay have a lower C of G with much more weight low down and also much more tyre friction. Anything on 2 wheels is much harder to control when leaned over in a corner with the brakes on so this should be avoided if at all possible.

Hi John, i was on a ride a couple of weeks ago around Leek ,Staffs(?) going down this mega hill at 40+mph and as i was braking i could tell that i could easily go over the handlebars if i was too enthusiastic with the front brake. I also ride motorbikes and as you say with the low c of g braking is not so much of a problem, in fact , i tend to use the front brake much more than the back when scrubbing of speed . On the bicycle, especially downhill, the back brake seems much more important and you have to use a combination of the two to get the speed of quickly. It is still remarkably easy to lift the backwheel when stopping quickly :shock:

John.T

I just brake as hard as feels safe with the front and try to hold the back so it is not quite locking. This gives the max stopping power. The same principle as the Moto GP boys use but I try not to stand it on the front wheel like they do at times.

jimycooper

i had a similar incident. i was going down a not very steep hill, about 10 metres behind. i was at about 20mph, and all of a sudden he bracked dramaticaly to go into a left turn which he must of just realised he needed to. i smashed in to the back of his car and went flying. broke a rib My point is that it wans't my speed, or bracking distance, it was the idiotic car's fault.

derekwatts

Dess1e wrote:

Comments re brake performance are not correct. Most modern DP brakes will still be able to lock your wheels up above 25 MPH. The limitation is the tyres, as locked wheels don't decelerate the bike and rider as quickly as controlled braking. Discs wouldn't be much of an improvement except perhaps in the wet.

Exactly - you hit the nail on the head. You are traction limited, not brake limited. (In the dry at least). Maybe the high / forward cg is also why you see pro-riders on descents shifting their but back on the saddle when braking into a hairpin from 50+ mph?

alfablue

jimycooper wrote:

i had a similar incident. i was going down a not very steep hill, about 10 metres behind. i was at about 20mph, and all of a sudden he bracked dramaticaly to go into a left turn which he must of just realised he needed to. i smashed in to the back of his car and went flying. broke a rib My point is that it wans't my speed, or bracking distance, it was the idiotic car's fault.

Sorry to be awkward, but you were obviously riding too close for your speed, you need to allow for idiotic drivers. No one ever won an insurance claim for rear-ending an idiot!

cyclingpunk

I had a similar incident recently. I was doing a steady 22ish upto a roundabout which was fully clear and some nutter in a car came flying past me, slammed on his brakes and took a left. It was clear I was going straight on as I was in the middle lane, yet he still flew past me on the right to get past

Wound me up but then I guess some people see a bike and think we all must be doing about 5 MPH not realising that in this case I was going a good speed. Guess the thing is just trying to keep alert and keep your hands near the brakes at crossing etc even if there is no traffic ahead.

_Brun_

derekwatts wrote:

Dess1e wrote:

Comments re brake performance are not correct. Most modern DP brakes will still be able to lock your wheels up above 25 MPH. The limitation is the tyres, as locked wheels don't decelerate the bike and rider as quickly as controlled braking. Discs wouldn't be much of an improvement except perhaps in the wet.

Exactly - you hit the nail on the head. You are traction limited, not brake limited. (In the dry at least). Maybe the high / forward cg is also why you see pro-riders on descents shifting their but back on the saddle when braking into a hairpin from 50+ mph?

Whilst practising emergency stopping (which I reckon all cyclists should do) I've never managed to lock the front wheel in the dry, so I disagree with the traction limit.

As far as I'm aware, maximum stopping power is acheived by keeping the CoG as far back as possible, and is at the point where the rear wheel is lifting off the ground. Brake any harder and the front wheel will still be stopping but you'll be over the bars.

Locking the back brake is easy under almost any circumstances, which is why it's almost completely ineffective for stopping quickly.

John.T

As far as I'm aware, maximum stopping power is acheived by keeping the CoG as far back as possible, and is at the point where the rear wheel is lifting off the ground. Brake any harder and the front wheel will still be stopping but you'll be over the bars.

Locking the back brake is easy under almost any circumstances, which is why it's almost completely ineffective for stopping quickly.

Exactly.

Donut

Cyclist doing 30mph in built up area. Child steps out onto road - hit by cyclist who couldn't stop in time - child dies.........has happened and I'm suprised it doesn't happen more often.

I see too many cyclist going too fast in urban areas weaving in and out of the traffic - yes a car will kill as well but cyclists are less visibile - get your thrills on the open roads.

Al_38

As has been mentioned above, the braking performance (in the dry at least) is limited by how much grip you get between the tyre and road. On both my road bikes It is possible to lock both brakes from fairly high speeds - if you manage to keep your weight far enough back then you don't go over the bars too... However they both stop considerably more slowly than my mtb which has 4pot hydraulic brakes (8 inch rotor on the front), which will stop almost immediately. The difference: much fatter and lower pressure tyres mean much more contact area and hence grip.

The only situation I have had similar was riding along a cycle lane on a fairly busy road. I was doing just under 30 and had a car to my left in its lane also doing about 30. The cycle lane goes around the outside of some parking bays and as I rapidly approaching a set, some idiot started to pull out of the bay into the cycle lane. Was much too close for me to do much about and despite hitting the brakes hard I still hit the car pulling out. I was mostly fine - removed the wing mirror and had a bit of a hasty dismount, but it could be so much worse and some times you can't do anything about it.

Also if i am riding in traffic I would generally do the same speed as the traffic, but if you were trying to leave enough of a gap so that you could fully stop in time then invariably another car will try and tuck into the gap you left. The only solution I have to this is to sit in the middle of the lane and make sure there isn't space for them to get by... If the traffic speeds up (and you can't keep up) you go back to the left hand side.

Al

jimycooper

jimycooper wrote:
i had a similar incident. i was going down a not very steep hill, about 10 metres behind. i was at about 20mph, and all of a sudden he bracked dramaticaly to go into a left turn which he must of just realised he needed to. i smashed in to the back of his car and went flying. broke a rib My point is that it wans't my speed, or bracking distance, it was the idiotic car's fault.
Sorry to be awkward, but you were obviously riding too close for your speed, you need to allow for idiotic drivers. No one ever won an insurance claim for rear-ending an idiot!

i know, i know i had just got out of bed and wasn't thinking prperly. I'm not trying excuse myself it was stupid

graeme_s-2

Al_38 wrote:

The only solution I have to this is to sit in the middle of the lane and make sure there isn't space for them to get by... If the traffic speeds up (and you can't keep up) you go back to the left hand side.

I didn't specifically mention being in primary position as it didn't occur to me that you'd choose to position yourself anywhere else when you're doing the same speed as other traffic. I would always move to the middle of the lane if I'm going the same speed as the traffic around me.