so who's in the right?

trevtherev

So there I am last night on my usual 10 mile commute home from Bristol and out the cycle path....and yes i'm going along at a nice pace tailing a cycle in front. Not far ahead I see a man and his dog, the dog is not on a lead and the owner is content to let the dog wonder about into the path of any cyclist. The cyclist ahead of me brakes and just misses the dog I then follow through and the dog again wonders across the cycle track straight into my path. I braked sharply and narrowly avoided injurying the sorry mutt! "Why can't you control your dog" I shouted. "Bloody cyclists" he replied why don't you slow down. Now I do agree that I was not travelling slow....but I could have been travelling faster and even if I was travelling at a mere 5mph the dog would have still got in my way and I would have had to brake sharply. The point here is that dogs should be kept under control especially on a busy cycle track, they should not be allowed to roam at will....if this had been a main road the dog would have been on a lead....
Anyway my reply was "***kin ***khead ( did I actually say that :evil: :evil: :evil: ) and flew off down the road.....( well I wasn't going to wait around in case he hit me )
Dog's are so unpredictable especially within range of bikes, and most owners usually calm the dog....but obviously not this ***khead!!

prj45

Both of you.

edit, I meant neither of you of course, I.e. you're both as bad as each other.

redvee

I think there are signs advising dog walkers to keep dogs on leads when on the cyclepath which usually means extending leads stretched across the cyclepath.

downfader

He has an obligation to keep the animal under control, but you also have an obligation not to swear at him so I can see both sides of the coin.

Have been in the same situation myself and if the area is somewhere away from the main road - eg through a park - there isnt much you can do. I had two dogs rear up at me on the local common right infront of me. The owner was about 200 feet away and I found it remarkable how he was able to call his dogs away.

I would suggest writing a letter with your issue to the local rag, word it as an animal lover and say how you fear someones dog is going to get hurt.

biondino

I think on a shared path you don't have a moral argument for going at normal bike pace. The situation changes if there is there a byelaw saying that dogs should be kept on a lead on this path. If so, then he's at fault; if not, then I think you are obliged to slow right down. And let's be honest, at 5mph you'll stop in about 2 feet without any discomfort.

We criticise car drivers and RLJers for always being in a hurry, but in this circumstance what was so important about your momentum that made you hold other path users in such disregard?

If it was a three-year-old child, you wouldn't expect the child to be aware of you and you wouldn't have expected the child to be on a leash. Perhaps the child wouldn't move as quickly, but the principle is the same. People have dogs, legitimately, and you need to watch out for them.

goldblendslurper

Tough one really. I mean the man has a right to walk his dog where he pleases. It's just slightly irresponsible to have it loose where there is a busy cycle path. If I was the bloke walking the dog and saw you 2 coming, I would have called the dog and held it until you passed. I suppose he wasn't in the wrong, he was just inconsiderate.

I did have an incident with a dog. It was on a cycle path that ran alongside a park. A woman was walking her dog. Well when I say walking, it was running around on its own. I saw it and slowed a bit just in case. Anyway it did decide to dive infront of me. Long story short, I ended up missing the dog, but going over the bars 8) . The owner was very appologetic. I wasn't hurt, and it was a nice dog so I didn't mind too much.

The majority of dog walkers who are out on the bridle ways are very good. It's the people who walk their dogs in the town who aren't considerate and even if they see the dog wandering, they'll leave me up to work my way around it.

laughingboy

I agree with Biondino on this one.

And can I be mischievous a minute, and suggest that if you swap the names of the participants, we have a familiar story: that of a big and potentially dangerous vehicle sharing space with a vulnerable, crushable little thing. Are the man's complaints about 'bloody cyclists' riding carelessly analogous to most cyclists' complaints about car drivers on the roads?

Solution? Let's play friendly!

downfader

laughingboy wrote:

I agree with Biondino on this one.

And can I be mischievous a minute, and suggest that if you swap the names of the participants, we have a familiar story: that of a big and potentially dangerous vehicle sharing space with a vulnerable, crushable little thing. Are the man's complaints about 'bloody cyclists' riding carelessly analogous to most cyclists' complaints about car drivers on the roads?

Solution? Let's play friendly!

While I agree with you it has to be said you do expect to see cycles on the roads. However you dont expect dogs to be on most cycle paths...

The Chingford Skinhead

laughingboy wrote:

I agree with Biondino on this one.

And can I be mischievous a minute, and suggest that if you swap the names of the participants, we have a familiar story: that of a big and potentially dangerous vehicle sharing space with a vulnerable, crushable little thing. Are the man's complaints about 'bloody cyclists' riding carelessly analogous to most cyclists' complaints about car drivers on the roads?

Solution? Let's play friendly!

+1 here to. We get a similar problem on the canal towpaths near where I am. I accept that I'm on a shared use facility and I try to be considerate and say hellow or thank you (if they have had to move) as I pass people. All to often however you get cyclists who have mistaken the facility for a velodrone and anre really bombing down the paths. There have been a lot of complaints and there is a real threat of British Waterways banning cyclists for good. We need to be as considerate of other road AND PATH users as we expect car drivers and lorry drivers to be of us 8)

N4PALM

I see it all the time along there. Its not just that the dog is there and you have to slow down because thats a given, its understandable.

Its the way the owners pay no attention to the dog thats running around all over the place off the lead and generally being totally in the way. This causes cyclist after cyclist to slow down to the point they almost have to get off the bike and walk it past the dog.

The fact is it is a shared path so you can say "suck it up cyclist, you have to slow down and share" but that doesnt address the issue that mr Dog walker isnt sharing the path at all, he is allowing his dog to take it all to itself!

I had it with a guy with 2 dogs a few days ago. And the same goes for walkers in groups taking up the whole path and then acting like its a a big chore to move over for you. Its parents with children that are running amok. Its great that they are all using the path but they need to have respect for the other users. Just because the cyclist is going faster than walking pace does not mean its their fault they want to get past.

UnworthyPapaLazaru

He was luck to just get a ******* ******** and not a **** **** ******* ******** ******* ****.

I jest.

I am getting increasingly pissed off (probably unnessecarily so) at people walking round the green cycle path at Arthur Seat. There are cycle path signs and pictures of bike all over the bloody thing yet I get stared at like I am in the wrong as I pass! There will be a '**** **** ya ******* ******** and get tae **** ya ********' or two before long.

simple_salmon

The Chingford Skinhead wrote:

laughingboy wrote:

There have been a lot of complaints and there is a real threat of British Waterways banning cyclists for good. We need to be as considerate of other road AND PATH users as we expect car drivers and lorry drivers to be of us 8)

I thought British Waterways already had on some routes. Around Leicestershire I'm sure some of the towpaths are accessible by bike with permission only...can anyone confirm that or did I dream it??

The Chingford Skinhead

simple_salmon wrote:

The Chingford Skinhead wrote:

laughingboy wrote:

There have been a lot of complaints and there is a real threat of British Waterways banning cyclists for good. We need to be as considerate of other road AND PATH users as we expect car drivers and lorry drivers to be of us 8)

I thought British Waterways already had on some routes. Around Leicestershire I'm sure some of the towpaths are accessible by bike with permission only...can anyone confirm that or did I dream it??

On a lot of canals you need a pass - which you download from the british waterways site (having given it your details). They've opened an awful lot of canal paths up to cyclists in recent years but the behaviour of some of our two-wheeled friends could well see this trend reversed

Kieran_Burns

downfader wrote:

He has an obligation to keep the animal under control, but you also have an obligation not to swear at him so I can see both sides of the coin.

I would change this to:

"He has an obligation to keep the animal under control, but you also have an obligation to keep you under control"

He was wrong to allow the dog to roam at will as it is inconsiderate to other users of the path. Just as it is inconsiderate to verbally abuse someone.

I have kept my bell on my bike and it is a Godsend down the bridlepath I use each night. I ring it well in advance and give walker / dog owners / runners (one girl who runs down there.... wow 8) ) plenty of warning. There are a few who don't move quick enough for me but I wait for them and ALWAYS say thank you.

Last night I had this little yapping thing chase after me and he got some serious exercise - his owner (nice lady) was laughing her socks off as I accelerated down the bridlepath The first section is always (reletively) busy but it soons empties of people and then I start building up the speed.

always_tyred

UnworthyPapaLazaru wrote:

I am getting increasingly pissed off (probably unnessecarily so) at people walking round the green cycle path at Arthur Seat. There are cycle path signs and pictures of bike all over the bloody thing yet I get stared at like I am in the wrong as I pass! There will be a '**** **** ya ******* ******** and get tae **** ya ********' or two before long.

I know what you mean - as such, I simply don't use it - too many Rubbernecken! It pithes me off more to be overtaken on a tight bit of the hill up the other side without waiting for you to get to a pull out - I mean, its a 5km circle - how much of a rush can anyone be in?

Towpaths... the actual topic... are one of the places where you really need a bell. Its true to say that a lot of users are inconsiderate (the shared use thing cuts both ways) but you should expect to slow down, frequently. Once in a while, not in a rabid fury, its appropriate to admonish someone. But really, the threshold is an awful lot higher than anywhere else.

Mithras

downfader wrote:

While I agree with you it has to be said you do expect to see cycles on the roads. However you dont expect dogs to be on most cycle paths...

I have to disagree with this. First rule of survival, whether riding a cycle or a motor bike. Always expect the unexpected! Dog on a cycle path is not unexpected. This is down to the owner being ignorant of the fact that his dog cannot read and having no knowledge of the higway code.
If you could see the dog, you know it's not on the lead, then I take it that you can work out that it is a hazzard and you need to take avoiding action.
A bigger hazzard is the dog that is on one of those extendalble leads that you don't see, that the owner has extended right across the path. As happened to me the other day. Hdd I not been on an "A" grade shout at the time I would have given him strong words of advice!

Bikerbaboon

I dont know some dog owners deserve a right good slap just for behing dum. I was up at stainburn forrest ( yorkshire trail center). Loads of signs saying please dont walk on hte cycle paths and to only clycle round the route one way etc.
On my way back form a route i saw walking out form the carpark along the trail 2 people walking the smallest crappy dogs i have ever seen. If you were going full speed down hill you would be lucky to see the owners in time, and i think the dogs would be mush in your spokes b4 you would see them.

And the number of dogs i have had chase me down the local bridal paths nearly biteing me.
sould be a licance to keep any pet. Dont get me started on horses.............

N4PALM

Kieran_Burns wrote:

I have kept my bell on my bike and it is a Godsend down the bridlepath I use each night. I ring it well in advance and give walker / dog owners / runners (one girl who runs down there.... wow Cool ) plenty of warning. There are a few who don't move quick enough for me but I wait for them and ALWAYS say thank you.

A bell might be uncool, a bell might spoil the look of a nice bike but on a shared path its pretty much essential. Ok not everyone moves when they hear the ding but its way more effective than shouting "Bike", "on the right" , "excuse me please", "GTFO MY WAY"!

But having said that, the problem path users such as the previously mentioned disprespectful dog owners dont give a damn wether u ding a bell or not and neither does their dog!


I always wave and/or say thanks to those who give room on the railway path, wether I had to Ding or not. I have so much respect for the parents out with their kids and teaching them how to share the path and telling them to "keep left". They care about the other path users, they care about their Childrens safety, they have respect so they get respect. There are Dog owners that also behave this way and they also get a friendly wave, smile and a thanks. I might be out to increase my fitness so I'm pushing along nice and quick but I know I have to slow down for everyone else.

Those that let their kids/dogs suddenly run out in front of my wheel, even tho I've already slowed down to walking pace and Ding'd my bell will get a filthy look and a shake of my head. The same goes for the walkers that take up the whole path.

Bikerbaboon wrote:

sould be a licance to keep any pet.

Agreed! I'd also say that there should be a license to have kids too!

jedster

I think Biondino nailed it.

IMO cyclists have to give way to peds (and their dogs) on shared use paths. As a result I tend to avoid them.

J

downfader

Back in august, I think it was, I was cycling up the shared path on the common here and politely told the dog owner "cyclist coming through on your left". She very kindly moved aside and as I cycled slowly through I startled her boxer dog and it dropped its frisbee and sort of recoiled.

I then realised I'd seen this dog before and startled it before at that. :oops: I just said sorry to the owner and cycled on.

Then about a week after I came out on the cycle lane from the common's tunnel and there was an elderly couple walking on it. Slowed right down, "apologies, cyclist on your left" I said and got a "OI! Slow down! Bl**dy cyclists!" out of them. I must have been doing 2mph, barely walking speed.

gabriel959

jedster wrote:

I think Biondino nailed it.

IMO cyclists have to give way to peds (and their dogs) on shared use paths. As a result I tend to avoid them.

J

Well I think he didn't. A cycle path works a bit like a road so and it is the owners responsibility to take care of the dog. It is my decission to slow down or not, but I don't really have to, as it is my right of way and I am on my side of the path. If the dog crosses the path in front of the bike it is its fault (and its owner), not mine. At the end of the day if you were in a car and an animal jumped in front of the car whilst you were driving, you wouldn't have an accident to not kill the animal, would you?

Bikerbaboon

downfader wrote:

Back in august, I think it was, I was cycling up the shared path on the common here and politely told the dog owner "cyclist coming through on your left". She very kindly moved aside and as I cycled slowly through I startled her boxer dog and it dropped its frisbee and sort of recoiled.

I then realised I'd seen this dog before and startled it before at that. :oops: I just said sorry to the owner and cycled on.

Then about a week after I came out on the cycle lane from the common's tunnel and there was an elderly couple walking on it. Slowed right down, "apologies, cyclist on your left" I said and got a "OI! Slow down! Bl**dy cyclists!" out of them. I must have been doing 2mph, barely walking speed.

Ive been told off for going down a bridal way too fast and scairing her horse by a woman...... I was stationary in a wide section of the path waiting for her to pas me. :shock:

downfader

Bikerbaboon wrote:

downfader wrote:

Back in august, I think it was, I was cycling up the shared path on the common here and politely told the dog owner "cyclist coming through on your left". She very kindly moved aside and as I cycled slowly through I startled her boxer dog and it dropped its frisbee and sort of recoiled.

I then realised I'd seen this dog before and startled it before at that. :oops: I just said sorry to the owner and cycled on.

Then about a week after I came out on the cycle lane from the common's tunnel and there was an elderly couple walking on it. Slowed right down, "apologies, cyclist on your left" I said and got a "OI! Slow down! Bl**dy cyclists!" out of them. I must have been doing 2mph, barely walking speed.

Ive been told off for going down a bridal way too fast and scairing her horse by a woman...... I was stationary in a wide section of the path waiting for her to pas me. :shock:

I remember you saying that. Was very odd, methinks mistaken identity

amircp

On the cyclepath alongside the River Esk near Musselburgh a loose dog attacked me, my wife and another cyclist, biting the ankle of him. I got of my bike and put it between myself and the dog when it had a go at me. When the owner arrived, he starting shouting at me to tell me not to throw my bike at the dog, no matter what I said! His partner looked really embarrased.

Jen J

gabriel959 wrote:

jedster wrote:

I think Biondino nailed it.

IMO cyclists have to give way to peds (and their dogs) on shared use paths. As a result I tend to avoid them.

J

Well I think he didn't. A cycle path works a bit like a road so and it is the owners responsibility to take care of the dog. It is my decission to slow down or not, but I don't really have to, as it is my right of way and I am on my side of the path. If the dog crosses the path in front of the bike it is its fault (and its owner), not mine. At the end of the day if you were in a car and an animal jumped in front of the car whilst you were driving, you wouldn't have an accident to not kill the animal, would you?

I'm speechless. For maybe the first time in my whole life.

tailwindhome

Jen J wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

jedster wrote:

I think Biondino nailed it.

IMO cyclists have to give way to peds (and their dogs) on shared use paths. As a result I tend to avoid them.

J

Well I think he didn't. A cycle path works a bit like a road so and it is the owners responsibility to take care of the dog. It is my decission to slow down or not, but I don't really have to, as it is my right of way and I am on my side of the path. If the dog crosses the path in front of the bike it is its fault (and its owner), not mine. At the end of the day if you were in a car and an animal jumped in front of the car whilst you were driving, you wouldn't have an accident to not kill the animal, would you?

I'm speechless. For maybe the first time in my whole life.

My understanding, perhaps incorrect, is that in a dog v car scenario, the driver should not take action that would be a danger to themselves/other cars/ road users ie swerving or emergency braking just to save a dog. Harsh but fair!

However to apply this logic to dog v bike is a bit, well I don't like to use the word, but stupid.

If a dog crosses your path and you hit it the results are going to be messy & you're not necessarily going to be a winner.

Slow down, watch where you're going, give the owner time to get the dog under control and all will be well

Remember you're only going to work!

Bikerbaboon

Jen J wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

jedster wrote:

I think Biondino nailed it.

IMO cyclists have to give way to peds (and their dogs) on shared use paths. As a result I tend to avoid them.

J

Well I think he didn't. A cycle path works a bit like a road so and it is the owners responsibility to take care of the dog. It is my decission to slow down or not, but I don't really have to, as it is my right of way and I am on my side of the path. If the dog crosses the path in front of the bike it is its fault (and its owner), not mine. At the end of the day if you were in a car and an animal jumped in front of the car whilst you were driving, you wouldn't have an accident to not kill the animal, would you?

I'm speechless. For maybe the first time in my whole life.

your rgith the cycle path is like a road and as they highway code states that if you can see a threat you need to take steps to reduce risk tall all involved.
eg

you see children playing a ball game at the side of the road....... you slow to help you stop in time incase one of them runs out after a ball.

my goals when i go out and about in my car/ motorbike/ bike

1) not to die
2) not to kill anything
3) get where i want to go in good time.



if that does not sway you just think of the damage that a dog could do to your bike.

ride_whenever

I thought in all public places you have to keep dogs under control. Obviously the OP shouldn't have lost his rag, but dogs should be under control. I think we're see too little common courtesy at the moment. No-one is looking out for anyone except number one, it is easy to be inconsiderate to other facility users, but is unbelieveably counter productive.

IMHO I ride considerately, and will always give way to pedestrians unless they wave me through. I wave peds across roads in front of me, let cars out. If i'm on foot I stop to let bikes out or through etc. If people treat me like garbage then they can expect an earful, and if i'm being considerate and someone pushes me to far, then they can expect to find their dog under my wheels.

That said, on the towpaths when coaching the vast majority of people are lovely rather than a***holes, and so everything is pleasant.

gradiric

There is really no right or wrong answer to the actual 'accident' (that's what it was) here - clearly both users in this instance believe they are in the right and it's the animosity post accident that escalates it to anything meaningful - obviously in the heat of the moment neither was prepared to see the situation from the other side. If you'd both (maybe even just one of you) had stopped and said "sorry, are you/dog ok?", then I bet this post wouldn't even been on here. Hence in situations like these the most important thing is mutual respect for other users, compromise and retaining a sense of perspective. The outcome of this case is a more bigoted view of cyclists (by the walker) and dog-walkers (by the cyclist), clearly not helpful to anyone going forward.

The one I can never figure out is the best way to cycle up to a horserider - whether ringing a bell, calling ahead or cycling up slowly without a bell/shout, the horserider nearly always seems to take offence/fright - and curses cyclists. And those that don't nearly never say thanks for me slowing down - strange breed...

Jen J

The main thing I've noticed since I started biking is that 'right of way' is often irrelevant.

If I have right of way in a cycle lane, and a lorry is in it, I'm not going challenge by trying to take him. I'll just sit behind, swear a bit and carry on with my journey.

Surely part of safety is working together as road/path users?

Whomever has right of way on a cycle path, is it not better to avoid an accident in the first place?

Yes dogs should be under control, but sometimes they're just not.

And just to note - walkers and cyclists give way to horses. Cyclist give way to walkers.

My ex-husband always used to walk straight over side roads, saying that if a car hit him, it would be the driver's fault. Personally I'd rather not get hit in the first place, whether it's my right of way or not.

ride_whenever

The horseriders are like that because they feel invunerable up on their horse. But basically whatever you do you can't predict what the horse is going to do because they range from flighty scaredycats to bombproof tanks. The thing to do is not be too loud too close. I have found (and i used to ride horses) that the further away you are when you give notice the better and less likely you are to spook the scaredy ones. That way the rider can then make an executive descision on what they want you to do, be it wait behind them or whatever. But, see my above post on being considerate. If they're going to be a complete arse about it then f*** 'em