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Crankset compatibility question

itboffinitboffin Posts: 19,761
edited November 2008 in The workshop
I currently have Shimano 105 compact double 50/34T on my road bike which my LBS assured me would be more than adequate for my local, at the time I was unsure, anyway I now know I was right, the small is too small and the large to small also, so my questions to you are;
    Can I replace just the chain rings with same PCD replacements? Can I upgrade groupset chain rings at the same time, say Ultegra or Dura-Ace? Would an upgrade crankset work with my 105 bottom bracket and dérailleur? What's the difference between Shimano types A & B? I was thinking of going 52/39T does that then make my set-up a double?

Thanks
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  • redddraggonredddraggon Posts: 10,862
    50/34 not big enough? 50-12 is plenty to pedal to 40mph, you just need to practice.

    How about a 11-23 or 11-21 cassette? Cheaper than changing your rings, also gives you the advantage of closer ratios.

    But to answer your question:

    You can get 110bcd rings that are 52 and 39s, so you should be able to up your gearing.

    http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... b0s113p936
    http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... b0s113p924

    Personally I can see that you are undergeared for commuting unless you are spending most of the time at 30+mph
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  • itboffinitboffin Posts: 19,761
    50/34 not big enough? 50-12 is plenty to pedal to 40mph, you just need to practice.

    How about a 11-23 or 11-21 cassette? Cheaper than changing your rings, also gives you the advantage of closer ratios.

    But to answer your question:

    You can get 110bcd rings that are 52 and 39s, so you should be able to up your gearing.

    http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... b0s113p936
    http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... b0s113p924

    Personally I can see that you are undergeared for commuting unless you are spending most of the time at 30+mph

    I already have an 11-25 cassette, the need for a larger big ring is because I sit pretty much within 1-3 gears on the big ring, the small ring is just to big a jump down so ends up being of no use, on the odd occasion when I've gotten to 50+11T (for a short sprint) I would have like a couple more inches :wink:
    Rule #5 // Harden The censored Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • biondinobiondino Posts: 5,990
    In what way is it too small, ITB? I guess if you're regularly over 32, 33mph it might be but otherwise I can't see how. have you got a lot of long juicy downhills? My top speed while pedalling to date on the Focus in 50/12 is 42.5mph and I reckon I can squeeze a bit more out.
  • itboffinitboffin Posts: 19,761
    biondino wrote:
    In what way is it too small, ITB? I guess if you're regularly over 32, 33mph it might be but otherwise I can't see how. have you got a lot of long juicy downhills? My top speed while pedalling to date on the Focus in 50/12 is 42.5mph and I reckon I can squeeze a bit more out.

    I seem stuck with either using the 50+25T on the big hills and pushing like a nutter, perhaps why my back hurts so much! or dropping to the 34T and spinning which I hate - yes yes I know!!!

    Anyway the 38T middle ring on my hybrid has the perfect balance for the up hills, the need for a bigger ring is purely for fun in those SCR sprints like Sundays RP outing.

    42.5MPH that's 130RPM phew! I hope that was downhill? that said I/we hit 36mph on Sunday.
    Rule #5 // Harden The censored Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • redddraggonredddraggon Posts: 10,862
    itboffin wrote:
    50/34 not big enough? 50-12 is plenty to pedal to 40mph, you just need to practice.

    How about a 11-23 or 11-21 cassette? Cheaper than changing your rings, also gives you the advantage of closer ratios.

    But to answer your question:

    You can get 110bcd rings that are 52 and 39s, so you should be able to up your gearing.

    http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... b0s113p936
    http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... b0s113p924

    Personally I can see that you are undergeared for commuting unless you are spending most of the time at 30+mph

    I already have an 11-25 cassette, the need for a larger big ring is because I sit pretty much within 1-3 gears on the big ring, the small ring is just to big a jump down so ends up being of no use, on the odd occasion when I've gotten to 50+11T (for a short sprint) I would have like a couple more inches :wink:

    What cadence are you at? You should perhaps look at speeding up your pedalling, before splashing the cash. Most pros use 53x11, and I can't imagine it's really necessary for commuting.
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  • itboffinitboffin Posts: 19,761
    What cadence are you at? You should perhaps look at speeding up your pedalling, before splashing the cash. Most pros use 53x11, and I can't imagine it's really necessary for commuting.

    I'm not using this bike for commuting I use either my hybrid (triple) or single speed 44/16T I use the road bike for weekend and longer hilly journeys, which at the moment is most of the time, lots and lots of hills.

    I average 60-80 RPM normally, I've tried spinning faster and I hate it, I much prefer to push bigger gears.
    Rule #5 // Harden The censored Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • redddraggonredddraggon Posts: 10,862
    itboffin wrote:
    What cadence are you at? You should perhaps look at speeding up your pedalling, before splashing the cash. Most pros use 53x11, and I can't imagine it's really necessary for commuting.

    I'm not using this bike for commuting I use either my hybrid (triple) or single speed 44/16T I use the road bike for weekend and longer hilly journeys, which at the moment is most of the time, lots and lots of hills.

    I average 60-80 RPM normally, I've tried spinning faster and I hate it, I much prefer to push bigger gears.

    This would have been a question better asked in the road forum. I assumed it was a commuting bike, being in the commuting forum.

    I used to be a grinder, but over the past 6 months or so, I've gone from 60 to 95rpm, it takes awhile to get comfortable doing to.

    I'm actually going from a 53-39 to a 50-34, with a 13-29 on the back, and at the moment most of my rides are 60+miles averaging at least 17mph and I'm not running out of gears.

    Practice, practice, practice, practice........
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  • itboffinitboffin Posts: 19,761
    Ah! so you're in the market for a new crankset too, so do you know the difference between Shimano's type A & B chain rings?

    Are Ultegra, Dura-Ace & 105 BB compatible?

    My average over 50+ miles is 17 MPH and has been for the what seems like an age, I know learning to spin faster will help me become an all round better cyclist but it just feels so unnatural.
    Rule #5 // Harden The censored Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • redddraggonredddraggon Posts: 10,862
    itboffin wrote:
    Ah! so you're in the market for a new crankset too, so do you know the difference between Shimano's type A & B chain rings?

    Are Ultegra, Dura-Ace & 105 BB compatible?

    I don't know anything about A and B rings - except that they might mean Inner and Outer rings - which way around I don't know. I've got Campag and FSA chainsets.

    All the hollowtech 2 BBs are compatible, the FSA MegaExo BBs work with hollowtech 2.
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  • itboffinitboffin Posts: 19,761
    Is it possible to mix shimano and campagnolo components?

    for example, all campy which shimano cassette/wheelset?
    Rule #5 // Harden The censored Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • always_tyredalways_tyred Posts: 4,965
    itboffin wrote:
    Is it possible to mix shimano and campagnolo components?

    for example, all campy which shimano cassette/wheelset?

    Try digging through the archives at velonews.com. There have been a lot of questions about this sort of thing over the last year or so on the Lenard Zinn column.

    You can mix Shimano 105-Ultegra-DA without problem. You cannot mix manufacturers' shifters and cassette/deralleiur (do NOT pull me up on my spelling - I'm knackered). You can get pulleys to adjust pull ratios, but this seems like an unnecessary fiddle to me.

    Most prebuilt wheelsets have a choice of freewheels for shimano/campy, other than campy/shaimano themselves (hence Fulcrum and Pro, respectively).

    Mavic make cross compatible cassettes. Sram cassettes are shimano compatible, but their shifters and rear mechs are not cross compatible with shimano or campag.

    I'm really not sure about cranks. I think that all 9 speeds or 10 speeds across manufacturers require chainrings sufficiently similar in width that its not a problem to mix and match. There are a number of spline systems at the moment. Used to be the square taper only, but now there are a plethora of them. I think a few minutes on wiggle should tell you the main ones - shimano and campag have their own, but shimano has allowed theirs to be licenced to aftermarket manufacturers I think.

    Hope that helps.

    Btw - there's an awful lot of "you should be doing X" in cycling, and "X" tends to follow trends. You know - which angle your bars should be at, where your shifters should be pointing, what angle your saddle should be at and, yup, cadence. 60 is not that low for climbing and 80 is not that low for everything else.
  • BuglyBugly Posts: 520
    Firstly any 10crankset will work with any manufaturerers wheels so no issues there.

    Campag freehubs and Shimano freehubs have different splines so the cassetes are not interchangeable (you can however buy third party cassettes that give you shimano spacing on campag freehubs and vice versa).

    Get the correct bearing set and axle for your cranks. All hollowtech bearings work with all hollowtech (and equivelent) cranks. Mix and match 105 with duraace if you like. YOu can use Dura Ace rings with 105 cranks (assuming the same bolt circle). Personally I think the Dura Ace rings are FUGLY.

    The Cassettes have different spacings this is what precludes using campag 10 speed shifters on a shimano cassette and vice versa.

    HOWEVER the mechs will work its the cable take up mechanisim in the shifter that controls the amount of cable that is released or taken in. So you can use Campag shifters with shimano mechs on campag clusters and shimano shifters with Campag mechs with shimano wheels if you really feel the need to be different.

    9 speed systems had the same spacings on the clusters so campag and shimano 9 speed gears work equally well togather (but the splines on the free hub are still different)

    ALL front mechs are interchangable as long as they can work with the size chain rings you have on.

    EG use SRAM with campag or shimano front shifters.

    In mountain bikes the SRAM rear mechs have a different take up ratio then shimano so SRAM rear mech work only with SRAM levers (on mountain bikes). Have never ridden SRAM on a road bike so I dont know if the same holds there.
  • always_tyredalways_tyred Posts: 4,965
    Are you sure about the rear mech compatibility? I thought the geometry of the cage could influence how much lateral movement there was for a given movement of the cable? I know that Sram is different in this way and I'd understood that that shimano and camag were similar but not quite the same.
  • BuglyBugly Posts: 520
    yep but I will fit a shimano to a campag back wheel and campag shifter for you and get back to you tomorrow. The spacers between the cogs differ between S and C (enough to be a pain) so the levers are specific to the cluster, but the cable pull ratio is the same from memory.
  • always_tyredalways_tyred Posts: 4,965
    Bugly wrote:
    yep but I will fit a shimano to a campag back wheel and campag shifter for you and get back to you tomorrow. The spacers between the cogs differ between S and C (enough to be a pain) so the levers are specific to the cluster, but the cable pull ratio is the same from memory.
    Yup - you are definitely right about the cog spacings - and I'm quite interested to know, for geek purposes, about the mechs.
  • itboffinitboffin Posts: 19,761
    The time has finally come from me to replace my 105 compact crankset, I bought a 105 double and plan to swap the compact to my tourer project but before I do I need to know can I use an Ultegra or Dura Ace BB with this crankset?

    If 105 ~ Dura Ace BB are the same spec then what's the difference?
    Rule #5 // Harden The censored Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • kr1skr1s Posts: 125
    itboffin wrote:

    I'm actually going from a 53-39 to a 50-34, with a 13-29 on the back, and at the moment most of my rides are 60+miles averaging at least 17mph and I'm not running out of gears.

    Practice, practice, practice, practice........

    Where did you get the 13 - 29 cassette red dragon?

    And is it a campag, I assume it must be ?

    Sorry to go off the topic :)
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