Beryl Burton v Nicole Cooke

spen666
spen666 Posts: 17,709
edited October 2008 in Pro race
Well who do you choose and why?
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Comments

  • nick hanson
    nick hanson Posts: 1,655
    Rather like saying Eddy Merckx or Lance Armstrong?
    One won everything (just about) going,over a long period,one targeted certain events.
    so many cols,so little time!
  • stagehopper
    stagehopper Posts: 1,593
    nick hanson wrote:
    Rather like saying Eddy Merckx or Lance Armstrong?
    One won everything (just about) going,over a long period,one targeted certain events.

    Bit harsh on Beryl that - she didn't have the chance to win the Grand Tours, the World Championships and the major one day classics like Cooke has (is there anything Cooke hasn't won of note?). The women's sport has advanced so far from Burton's era with the opportunities to shine are greater, but the competition much harder. You can see the vast jumps in professional in just the last five or six years.
    @stagehopper
  • nick hanson
    nick hanson Posts: 1,655
    Don't see how thats harsh on Beryl.She was a total legend,and as I said before,won just about everything there was to win,at that time.
    Cooke is awesome at what she sets out to achieve,which is road racing,wheras BB won at the TOP level at track,time trial & road
    so many cols,so little time!
  • Barry Roubaix
    Barry Roubaix Posts: 233
    On a bike or mud wrestling?
  • the ferry
    the ferry Posts: 258
    Nick .......i think stagehopper was being sarcastic :)
  • OffTheBackAdam
    OffTheBackAdam Posts: 1,869
    Such hugely different eras, but I'd go for BB, winning anything and everything from a 3,000m pursuit to a 12 hr TT (Setting not just a Women's Competition Record, but exceeding the men's too!)
    Her palmares included 74 National Championships, 50 Competition Records and 25 consecutive BBAR (Best British allrounder - 50, 100 miles and 12 hour, 1959-84). Beryl was also world champion on 7 occasions, 5 Pursuit & 2 Road.
    In her days, the women didn't have a World TT, if there was, she'd have undoubtably added a few of those to her trophy cabinet too.
    Women's cycling was only introduced at the 84 Olympics, she wasn't selected by the UK Cycling authorities for the inaugural Women's TdF in 1984, as she didn't have any "current road experience" :roll: , after another rider droped out at the last minute, they did ask her and were told to go & visit a taxidermist! :D ,I don't believe that her times have been surpassed - 25 miles (1976, 53 min 21 sec), 50 miles (1976, 1 hour 51 min 30 sec), 100 miles (1968, 3 hours 55 min 05 sec) and 12 hours (1967, 277.25 miles), by any other woman.
    If Nicole keeps going for another 20-odd years then she may match BB.
    Remember that you are an Englishman and thus have won first prize in the lottery of life.
  • beatsystem
    beatsystem Posts: 118
    I agree Beryl was awsome, Nicole will have t keep it up for a lot longer to reach those dizzy heights.
  • genki
    genki Posts: 305
    OffTheBackAdam wrote:
    I don't believe that her times have been surpassed - 25 miles (1976, 53 min 21 sec), 50 miles (1976, 1 hour 51 min 30 sec), 100 miles (1968, 3 hours 55 min 05 sec) and 12 hours (1967, 277.25 miles), by any other woman.
    If Nicole keeps going for another 20-odd years then she may match BB.

    BB's record for 12hrs still stands - no-one's been within 19 miles of it - but the 25, 50 and 100 records have been beaten by 2 or 3 women only.

    http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?showforum=34

    But her's were set without aerobars, pointy hats or disc wheels which just shows you how great they were.
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    They're both great riders - but BB was amazing - we're still talking about her decades later. So come back in 2048 and ask the question again ?
  • stagehopper
    stagehopper Posts: 1,593
    the ferry wrote:
    Nick .......i think stagehopper was being sarcastic :)

    Indeed - I knew Nick was favouring Beryl with his analogy hence turning it on its head.

    The problem with comparing anyone to BB is her records stand like Mount Everest towering over the sport. They can not be denied or diminished in stature. They are however of an entirely different era. She would undoubtedly be a great rider in this era, but with the advent of professional road teams, World Cup races, the grand tours etc I doubt she'd spend as much time on the British road time-trialling obsession and would have to compete in fields across the world much stronger in talent and depth.

    Cooke's palmares is incredible, particularly when you take into account the recurring knee injuries she's had.
    @stagehopper
  • mrushton
    mrushton Posts: 5,182
    BB also raced against men - the 'jelly baby' incident springs to mind so she was on a more difficult level anyway. No lightweight bikes, no special diets. just talent and sheer bloody mindedness, not unlike NC but BB was a pioneer and that's what counts.
    M.Rushton
  • spen666
    spen666 Posts: 17,709
    mrushton wrote:
    BB also raced against men - the 'jelly baby' incident springs to mind so she was on a more difficult level anyway. No lightweight bikes, no special diets. just talent and sheer bloody mindedness, not unlike NC but BB was a pioneer and that's what counts.

    what was that?
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  • mrushton
    mrushton Posts: 5,182
    Apparently she was in a race or tt and one of the men she was racing against recalled he was going as fast as he could when BB comes alongside, looks at him and asks would he like a jelly baby (could be licquorice allsort) which she had in her jersey pocket. he said no so she then proceeded to go past him. Someone else tells the story of how they drilled out their seatpost to lighten the bike and Beryl took one look and led a ride over rougher roads leading to his seatpost collapsing :D

    http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=2487

    When you read this article, her talent becomes all the more remarkable.
    M.Rushton
  • DavidBelcher
    DavidBelcher Posts: 2,684
    mrushton wrote:
    Apparently she was in a race or tt and one of the men she was racing against recalled he was going as fast as he could when BB comes alongside, looks at him and asks would he like a jelly baby (could be licquorice allsort) which she had in her jersey pocket. he said no so she then proceeded to go past him.

    It was a liquorice allsort; the rider in question, Mike McNamara, rode for my club (Clifton CC) at the time, during an era when they grabbed their fair share of headlines including Roy Cromack's famous 24-hour record exploit.

    David
    "It is not enough merely to win; others must lose." - Gore Vidal
  • Michuel
    Michuel Posts: 269
    Beryl's TT times were done on non-aero equipment (helmets, disc wheels, low profile, lycra). Aero equipment gives at least a 10% advantage.

    She held a hard physical farm labouring job and was a houswife bringing up a child at the same time as racing.

    When you evaluate a woman's performance you compare to a man's in same conditions and woman should be 10% slower. As stated she wqas faster than men's champion McNamara.

    I haven't got the records burt she performed very well in Grand Prix des Nations TT, maybe as fast as slowest pro.

    As stated her performances went from pursuit w'c, TT n'c over all distances to 12hr, road w/c.

    And don't let's forget Mandy Jones world road champion.
  • nick hanson
    nick hanson Posts: 1,655
    spen666 wrote:
    mrushton wrote:
    BB also raced against men - the 'jelly baby' incident springs to mind so she was on a more difficult level anyway. No lightweight bikes, no special diets. just talent and sheer bloody mindedness, not unlike NC but BB was a pioneer and that's what counts.

    what was that?
    I seem to recall Mike Mcnamara was actually heading for a new mens 12 hour record,when BB caught him up,& offered him a jelly baby,before riding on to win the whole event!
    so many cols,so little time!
  • Mike Healey
    Mike Healey Posts: 1,023
    DavidBelcher wrote:
    mrushton wrote:
    Apparently she was in a race or tt and one of the men she was racing against recalled he was going as fast as he could when BB comes alongside, looks at him and asks would he like a jelly baby (could be licquorice allsort) which she had in her jersey pocket. he said no so she then proceeded to go past him.

    It was a liquorice allsort; the rider in question, Mike McNamara, rode for my club (Clifton CC) at the time, during an era when they grabbed their fair share of headlines including Roy Cromack's famous 24-hour record exploit.

    David

    It was actually in the event in which they both set new 12-hour national records - but Beryl's was further.
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  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Difficult to compare eras but I suspect that, given all the modern eras advantages, Beryl would have been even more incredible than she was without.
  • gavintc
    gavintc Posts: 3,009
    spen666 wrote:
    Well who do you choose and why?

    Well Beryl is most definitely a little smelly now, so I would chose our lovely Nicole.

    More seriously, Nicole is young and progressing. Give her time. Once she has completed her palamares, a fairer comparison can be made.
  • nick hanson
    nick hanson Posts: 1,655
    gavintc wrote:
    spen666 wrote:
    Well who do you choose and why?

    Well Beryl is most definitely a little smelly now, so I would chose our lovely Nicole.

    More seriously, Nicole is young and progressing. Give her time. Once she has completed her palamares, a fairer comparison can be made.
    Very poor taste.
    Kindly leave the room
    so many cols,so little time!

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