TheLondonPaper Cyclists and HGVs article

lost_in_thought

Not wanting fo fuel the flames here, but read this last night in the London Paper - the freebie one - and it seemed very well-written, balanced and educational to me.

Neither side was ranting and raving, and cyclists and HGV drivers could both learn from it.

Article here:

http://www.thelondonpaper.com/cs/Satell ... Controller

EDIT: Evidently I can't spell London!

Gussio

As you say, a nicely balanced article. I hadn't heard of those sensors being fitted to lorries - seems very sensible.

A year or so back they had a lorry cab parked up in Trafalgar Sq so that cyclists could sit in the driver's seat and understand the extent of the blind spots that they have to deal with.

always_tyred

I have, however, heard the suggestion that HGV's have transparrent doors. Someone somewhere in the industry (or the manufacturing industry) objected to this on some basis or other unrelated to safety.

I wonder if the Daily Mail will pick this article up?

dondare

Thelondonpaper has a track record of potraying cycling as a highly dangerous and antisocial activity performed by idiots and criminals. I'm curious to see what letters they print in response to this article: expect red-light-jumping, the Highway Code, "road tax", compulsory insurance &c. &c. to be in the line-up.

dondare

Gussio wrote:

As you say, a nicely balanced article. I hadn't heard of those sensors being fitted to lorries - seems very sensible.

A year or so back they had a lorry cab parked up in Trafalgar Sq so that cyclists could sit in the driver's seat and understand the extent of the blind spots that they have to deal with.

I sat in the cab but learned nothing from it; so the drivers can't see anything directly in front of them, to the sides or behind; I already knew that. What I want to know is why, in that case, are they allowed in town?

cougie

V good article.

lost_in_thought

dondare wrote:

Gussio wrote:

As you say, a nicely balanced article. I hadn't heard of those sensors being fitted to lorries - seems very sensible.

A year or so back they had a lorry cab parked up in Trafalgar Sq so that cyclists could sit in the driver's seat and understand the extent of the blind spots that they have to deal with.

I sat in the cab but learned nothing from it; so the drivers can't see anything directly in front of them, to the sides or behind; I already knew that. What I want to know is why, in that case, are they allowed in town?

Dondare, they carry things which have to get into town. Without them we'd have empty shops, for starters.

mcmullej

sorry LiT, not having a go at you but really!!

Fully stocked shops are worth how many cyclists deaths?

lost_in_thought

mcmullej wrote:

sorry LiT, not having a go at you but really!!

Fully stocked shops are worth how many cyclists deaths?

My point was mroe that they are a necessary evil and I don't think we can just snap our fingers and ban them from driving in town without an alternative solution to bringing in the vast amounts of goods and other things which a city needs to function.

mcmullej

Hmmm. I do see your point. Really I do.

But just from reading here, it seems that HGVs' restricted driver visibility is a known problem. I mean, they go so far as to try to educate people about it.

Maybe a better solution would be to restrict the hours that vehicles in which the driver can see f**k all can drive through the city?

---

This was all just theoretical for me until last week - I normally do my commuting on country roads where avoiding the road-kill has a very innocent meaning - but Bromptoning across town for a few days last month was a genuinely scary and upsetting experience.

It's a wonder cyclists aren't killed every day.

pyro_maniac

trucks are not just to make sure shops are fully stocked, without trucks there would be no shops at all
everything we eat/buy has been transported by truck at some point, unfortunately there is no real solution to this
the side beepers sound like a very good idea, and i think that a transparent panel in the nearside door would be a good idea, and i dont see how it would be dangerous
another idea would be to make sure every truck has one of those fresnel lenses on the nearside window to help eliminate blind spots, they give them out to left hand drive trucks, so why not make every truck use one
its also a good idea to try and make sure deliverys are made at night, and not during the day/rush hour
the only problem with that would be that a lot of residents near shops would not want the noise from trucks through the night

Gussio

lost_in_thought wrote:

mcmullej wrote:

sorry LiT, not having a go at you but really!!

Fully stocked shops are worth how many cyclists deaths?

My point was mroe that they are a necessary evil and I don't think we can just snap our fingers and ban them from driving in town without an alternative solution to bringing in the vast amounts of goods and other things which a city needs to function.

Smaller vans and lorries only on the smaller inner-city roads, with the monster articulated lorries confined to dual carriageways? I've seen double-trailered lorries on the King's Road, which is plain madness.

snooks

mcmullej wrote:

sorry LiT, not having a go at you but really!!

Fully stocked shops are worth how many cyclists deaths?

OK, if you want to carry this on...How many fish are worth the death of a fisherman? how many trademarks are worth child labour? How much chocolate is worth poor working conditions for the farmers? How much would you pay for a cup of tea if the workers had a decent minimum wage?

How many deaths are caused by cars?

It's not right, I know, I'm just playing devils advocate here

It's not a case of how many deaths is the food worth. Cities need an infrastructure and delivery system...If we go down the "Keep trucks off the roads during rush hours" there could well be a back lash of keep cyclist off the roads when tracks are around.

Truck have to be on our roads to get everything we work with, in, eat drink and sleep on into the city.Not to mention get the bikes to the bike shops so we can spend our hard earned pennies at lunch time

Lets face it cyclist don't have to be on the road, we choose to use an alternative form of transport when there is actually a public transport system to carry people from their homes to work already.

biondino

Why not make it against the law for cyclists to filter up the inside of lorries or buses? Unfair, yes, overkill, certainly, but then maybe the cyclists wouldn't get themselves into these insane positions intentionally or otherwise (and if they did, they'd do it knowing full well they're breaking the law).

Gussio

mcmullej wrote:

But just from reading here, it seems that HGVs' restricted driver visibility is a known problem. I mean, they go so far as to try to educate people about it.

Judging by the number of idiots I see squeezing down the nearside of HGVs and buses almost every day, I would say that restricted driver visibility is not a known problem. As the article and the OP point out, greater awareness is required on the part of both cyclists and larger vehicles. It is sad to say, but getting tangled in the wheels of a left turning HGV ought to be easily avoided by staying behind the trailer. Getting clipped by an HGV overtaking too closely or cutting back in too early is another matter....

snooks

Gussio wrote:

Smaller vans and lorries only on the smaller inner-city roads, with the monster articulated lorries confined to dual carriageways?

What happens at the end of the Dual CW?...hmmmm and just so I understand...you'd like 5 or 6 more white vans on the road for each and every truck?? Really

Where are they going to find all these angry men that can't drive to sit behind the wheels of the ubiquitous white van??

dang65

Gussio wrote:

A year or so back they had a lorry cab parked up in Trafalgar Sq so that cyclists could sit in the driver's seat and understand the extent of the blind spots that they have to deal with.

That sounds like a good idea. Were there also bikes available for lorry drivers to try out?

;-)

snooks

biondino wrote:

Why not make it against the law for cyclists to filter up the inside of lorries or buses? Unfair, yes, overkill, certainly, but then maybe the cyclists wouldn't get themselves into these insane positions intentionally or otherwise (and if they did, they'd do it knowing full well they're breaking the law).

Ah, but if you make it illegal, people will do it cos they think it's safer....Runs and hides!!!

mcmullej

"Truck have to be on our roads to get everything we work with, in, eat drink and sleep on into the city.Not to mention get the bikes to the bike shops so we can spend our hard earned pennies at lunch time "

----


Good point.

But if HGVs have a known problem where the driver cannot see directly in front, nor down the sides then I respectfully suggest it might be worth considering stopping them from entering city centres during rush hour. Or redesigning the HGVs.

always_tyred

biondino wrote:

Why not make it against the law for cyclists to filter up the inside of lorries or buses? Unfair, yes, overkill, certainly, but then maybe the cyclists wouldn't get themselves into these insane positions intentionally or otherwise (and if they did, they'd do it knowing full well they're breaking the law).

I thought that many of the recent incidents were HGV's overtaking cyclists and turning across them? The article didn't really tackle that issue.

lost_in_thought

mcmullej wrote:

But if HGVs have a known problem where the driver cannot see directly in front, nor down the sides then I respectfully suggest it might be worth considering stopping them from entering city centres during rush hour. Or redesigning the HGVs.

I think that's true, to the extent that adding mirrors and maybe windows/ transparent doors seems a good and cheap way to do so, and the side sensors are also a good plan.

However, i don't think a total redesign of the HGV is a realistic option.

Also, I think that increasing the awareness of cyclists about the fact that drivers of the current HGVs can't see them in certain places etc. can only be a good thing.

Not that it's necessarily a cyclist's fault if an HGV hits them, but if there are things they could do to minimise that risk, like not filtering up the inside of HGVs, or staying well clear of a turning HGV in front, it is worth trying to educate the cyclist as well as modify the HGV.

Gussio

snooks wrote:

Gussio wrote:

Smaller vans and lorries only on the smaller inner-city roads, with the monster articulated lorries confined to dual carriageways?

What happens at the end of the Dual CW?...hmmmm and just so I understand...you'd like 5 or 6 more white vans on the road for each and every truck?? Really

Where are they going to find all these angry men that can't drive to sit behind the wheels of the ubiquitous white van??

Curse you for picking holes in my ill-thoughtout scheme

OK - how about goods delivered all over the city using suction tubes like on Futurama?

lost_in_thought

Always Tyred wrote:

biondino wrote:

Why not make it against the law for cyclists to filter up the inside of lorries or buses? Unfair, yes, overkill, certainly, but then maybe the cyclists wouldn't get themselves into these insane positions intentionally or otherwise (and if they did, they'd do it knowing full well they're breaking the law).

I thought that many of the recent incidents were HGV's overtaking cyclists and turning across them? The article didn't really tackle that issue.

Indeed not.

I have to admit I don't knw the exact circumstances of the recent accidents.

Overtaking and turning across is a universal issue, not specific to HGVs. I get it from buses, cars, motorbikes, you name it.

Maybe that's why.... ?

Gussio

dang65 wrote:

Gussio wrote:

Were there also bikes available for lorry drivers to try out? ;-)

I understand that they couldn't find a bike that was strong enough to take the weight of your average long distance truck driver

snooks

Gussio wrote:

OK - how about goods delivered all over the city using suction tubes like on Futurama?

Don't we have that already? for people?...well the tube does suck the will to live from me

SmellTheGlove

I saw the article and (I know - those pesky journos have their deadlines to hit and all that) was surprised that the cyclist, who was portrayed as an instructor, admitted to having such a dismissive attitude to truckers’ driving skills. Admission of rank ignorance I would say. We all have to learn to survive – maybe that’s her way.

All told, it was balanced enough but I don’t believe the headline had to be such a screamer.

dondare

Bus drivers have no problem actually seeing cyclists (although they're not always very happy with the sight) so why can't lorries have the same design of cab?

pyro_maniac

bus drivers have the advantage of having the nearside doors to see through, they also sit a lot lower down as the engine is in the back and their side vision is better
trucks generally sit on top of the engine and have no see through panels on the nearside (yet) so sit a lot higher up

lost_in_thought

dondare wrote:

Bus drivers have no problem actually seeing cyclists (although they're not always very happy with the sight) so why can't lorries have the same design of cab?

Because they have to sit on the engine... Or have one of those long-nosed type trucks which also have really bad visibility.

snooks

dondare wrote:

Bus drivers have no problem actually seeing cyclists (although they're not always very happy with the sight) so why can't lorries have the same design of cab?

I don't think it's the design of the cab...I think it's all the windowy things running down the side of the buss that help, along with the big mirror that can see the full length of the inside/outside of bus as well

jedster

I don't think much can be done about truck design apart from perhaps mirrors/cameras. Afterall, the trucks that scare me (and seem to be responsibel for a disproportionate share of accidents are rigid dumpers, tippers and cement trucks. Not much substitute for them unless we stop building in the city...

LiT is right, the high position of truck drivers does create blindspots near the truck at ground level.