IMPORTANT - Please Read

snooks

I've decided to try to raise awareness of the dangers associated with HGVs and other large vehicles on the road. Especially going up the inside of a HGV, turning left or otherwise.

So I've got a mate to design this electronic flyer/poster that looks like this
:


Please download the jpg, and Email it around

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/9/29/2121388/CyclistsTHINK.jpg

A4 Poster in pdf print it off, stick it up in your windows, office, bike parks, I'm sure you get the idea

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/9/29/2121388/CyclistsTHINKA4.pdf

Or the smaller A5 version (for those with less ink and less room )

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/9/29/2121388/CyclistsTHINKA5.pdf

It's all copyright free and free to distribute and share

Oh and like every idea nowadays I've started a facebook group

http://www.new.facebook.com/group.php?gid=28903548493


So go to it, spread the word!










Are you still here??

Gavin Gilbert

Can you do me a favour mate? When I'm left hooked by the HGV that came up from behind me can you not post on here hand-wringing about how I should have taken more care?

snooks

Gavin Gilbert wrote:

Can you do me a favour mate? When I'm left hooked by the HGV that came up from behind me can you not post on here hand-wringing about how I should have taken more care?

First off, sorry to hear you were left hooked. All I'm trying to say is watch out. I'm sorry if this has offended you

I didn't do this to imply blame to a cyclist or an HGV, I did it simply to raise awareness amongst cyclists that might not frequent these forums that there is a danger with HGVs, I thought I was careful in my wording so as not to apportion blame to either party. I guess not careful enough. Sorry.

I saw a woman with a child in a childs seat almost get caught by and HGV through no fault of her own...Luckily she saw she was being overtaken/cut up by a HGV and hit the brakes. But she was aware that she was in a dangerous position and got out of it.

It was this sort of behavior I was trying to encourage.

Now just to clarify, I know nothing about your incident and I'm not saying you could have avoided it, just in case you thought I was "hand -wringing" again, which I most certainly was not.

Gavin Gilbert

You still don't get it do you? Try reading my post here again: http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopi ... 0&start=90

You are directly involving 2 fatal incidents in your little campaign - as far as we know both are still subject to Police investigation. In point of fact there was a Police appeal for information board at the scene of one of the incidents this afternoon when I rode past.

Not only are your actions crass and insensitive, however well intentioned - you also run the risk of potentially causing problems to any potential legal action the CPS see fit to bring in respect of the incidents.

If you want to discuss HGV safety go ahead. But whilst you continue to invoke open investigations I will continue to red flag you.

snooks

Gavin Gilbert wrote:

You still don't get it do you? Try reading my post here again: http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopi ... 0&start=90

You are directly involving 2 fatal incidents in your little campaign - as far as we know both are still subject to Police investigation. In point of fact there was a Police appeal for information board at the scene of one of the incidents this afternoon when I rode past.

Not only are your actions crass and insensitive, however well intentioned - you also run the risk of potentially causing problems to any potential legal action the CPS see fit to bring in respect of the incidents.

If you want to discuss HGV safety go ahead. But whilst you continue to invoke open investigations I will continue to red flag you.

Hi again GG,

I've removed any mention of the the two fatalities last week, The flyer no longer contains it, the facebook site no longer contains it...But never the less it was hearing about the deaths that made me want to do something.

I wasn't suggesting the cyclists were to blame, I wasn't aware I was implying them to be at blame, if it came across this way I am sincerely sorry to anyone I might have upset this was not my intension at all.

re your previous post on the locked thread, I wasn't aware it was intended for me and because the thread is now locked I cannot remove the flyer, but I've asked the mods to remove the link (even though the original flyer has been removed from my image hosting site)

I can only apologise that you feel my liittle campaign is crass and insensitive.

woodford2barbican

Gavin Gilbert wrote:

Not only are your actions crass and insensitive, however well intentioned - you also run the risk of potentially causing problems to any potential legal action the CPS see fit to bring in respect of the incidents.

Personally, I think that this is assigning a little too much importance to the drivel which we come out with here.

If anyone tries to use anything on this board as a defence for anyone, all the other lawyer would have to do it read a few excerpts about Greg's big ring from SCR.

It is only opinion after all, not fact.

As for being crass and insensitive - so what.

If it makes one person think about being a little bit more aware n the road - it has worked and is worth it.

I would even say it was worth it if it led to someone getting off a hypothetical dangerous driving charge (which it won't ) as that won't change the outcome of any previous incident.

dulldave

Is there some history here or is Gavin being overly sensitive?

Have I missed something? All I can see is someone trying to promote safer cycling by reminding people not to go up the inside of lorries. I see cyclist doing this all the time. It doesn't mean that all cyclists do this and that every accident involving HGVs is the fault of the cyclist.

Just in the same way that every accident involving a cyclist and a driver is not necessarily the fault of the driver. We're pretty quick to jump to that conclusion on here.

Littigator

Gavin Gilbert wrote:

You still don't get it do you? Try reading my post here again: http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopi ... 0&start=90

You are directly involving 2 fatal incidents in your little campaign - as far as we know both are still subject to Police investigation. In point of fact there was a Police appeal for information board at the scene of one of the incidents this afternoon when I rode past.

Not only are your actions crass and insensitive, however well intentioned - you also run the risk of potentially causing problems to any potential legal action the CPS see fit to bring in respect of the incidents.

If you want to discuss HGV safety go ahead. But whilst you continue to invoke open investigations I will continue to red flag you.

Snooks, firstly, well done with the flyer, I and the huge majority of people who posted input towards this subject applaud your efforts.

GavingGilbert, you have an opinion as to the validity and the effect of this flyer, particularly should the families or friends of either of the people killed by the two incidents be reading these posts. I would like to think, but I may be wrong, that they would support any effort to try to improve safety for all cyclists in the light of the most awful events which have befallen them and I think most if not all posters have made it clear that the people effected by these two incidents very much have our thoughts with them.

I hope you will accept that snooks and others are entitled to act on their own opinions with good intent. I also hope that you will agree that snooks has acfted fairly to your input and taken your opinions on board as to the content of the flyer.

Nick6891

i think you should make another ones for drivers cos its hard to miss a HGV but its easy for the drivers not to see cyclists

jedster

Nick,

You make a fair point but as cyclists the only thing we can really do is control our own actions. I'm pretty clear that cyclists should never assume that other road users will
a) see them
b) act responsibly near them.

Note this does not mean tha a and b are OK, it just means that we need to cycle defensively (not timidly) to keep ourselves safe. IME, a lot of inexperienced cyclists dont get it and this is where snooks poster has a role.

J

lost_in_thought

I think that anything which can be done to try to improve this level of fatalities is a good thing, and if it makes cyclists more aware of the dangers HGVs pose then brilliant, and I hope it will.

I'm not sure quite why this has made GavinGilbert so angry, nowhere did anyone imply that the cyclists in these incidents were to blame.

Well done Snooks, great stuff. Have circulated to cyclists in my office and am about to ring LBS guy to get his email address.

OldSkoolKona

well done to snooks I say - we often (myself included) post rants on here but few of us (and I applaud those that do) actually follow up with actions, whether its writing to their council/Boris/police/paper etc.

Anything that increases awareness amongst cyclists of road awareness/safety is good in my book, and I don't think (again, opinion) it lessens the cases where the cyclist was not to blame for an incident.

I think it was LiT (apologies for paraphrasing) who quoted the adage about being right and dead versus alive and well. Its an adage I've taken to heart and apply more when I'm cycling than before. Defensive* cycling and good cycle craft are what will help keep you in the latter category, and raising awareness of this is essential.

Again, I state this is only opinion, as is all what most of us post.


*Note - defensive in this context does not mean riding in the gutter, it means being aware of yourself and your surrounding and is also the approach you are taught when doing an Advance Driving/Motorcycling course - thought it was worth clairfying (appreciate most of you know this, but just for anyone who doesn't, e.g. RLJers)

ride_whenever

I'd imagine printing them on A5 sticky back plastic sheets and then you could bosh them on HGVs as you cycle past....

woodford2barbican

Snooks - get on to this lot....

http://www.cyclesafelondon.com

gtvlusso

Well done snooks.

It is a HGV drivers job to be safe and secure on the road and they will always try their best to avoid anything as it is their sole income to drive - I have always had nothing but praise for them and have never had an incident with a HGV in 10 years + of cycling. If you go up the left when a HGV clearly needs a wide birth to get around a corner/junction then you are simply a cock monkey and deserve to get flattened - so don't complain about it.

gabriel959

Good idea that website wooford2barbican you really need something done down in London.

woodford2barbican

gabriel959 wrote:

Good idea that website wooford2barbican you really need something done down in London.

It's not my website. I was going to do something like that, but someone has beaten me to it. I have offered him my help - not sure what I can do, but want to do something.

It was the people at londonfgss who set it up & I saw it linked to from Moving Target.

snooks

Hi all,

First thing is first, thanx for all the support and words of encouragement, I set out to work this morning with doubts whether I was doing the right thing or not...I believed I was but after reading Gavin's thoughts and replies I was starting to wonder, I'm just sorry that Gavin felt I was being crass and insensitive, which was as far from my intention as it was as possible to get.

I've been thinking about this, and the flyer/poster etc...And if you were replace cyclists with teenagers and HGVs with knives you get:

TEENAGERS

When somebody has a knife

THINK!

23 teenagers have been killed by knives this year

Watch out for knives

You might not live to regret it


Would that have caused the same reaction? Is that being more or less crass and insensitive? Would that effect the legal position in a court case?

I'll let you make up your own minds

snooks

woodford2barbican wrote:

Snooks - get on to this lot....

http://www.cyclesafelondon.com

Seems that someone has beaten me to it

moonio

hmmm, after my near miss on blackfriars bridge at the same spot where a cyclist suffered serious injury I am also beginning to question this campaign.

I did not undertake a vehicle in its blind spot, the vehicle overtook me on my right and attempted to cross my path in order to turn left at the junction.

I am coming to the conclusion that cycle lanes are fundamentally flawed as they allow an outside lane of traffic (with equal priority) to cross them in order to join another carriageway.

doog442

Brilliant idea snooks. Im circulating this to colleagues and it should go to schools as well.

Ive already lectured my kids and work colleagues (several of whom are also new to road cycling) on this danger.

I find the comments of Mr Gilbert amazing for someone who clearly thinks that anyone who comments, or draws a judgement on a fatal road traffic collision is a 'clown'.(see locked thread) Clearly he has extensive knowledge of criminal law :!: You are doing nothing wrong, this will have NO impact on any investigation and will do nothing to undermine a prosecution case.

'But whilst you continue to invoke open investigations I will continue to red flag you.' :?:

These investigations could go on for months, a trial (if one occured could take a year to 18 months to reach a crown court) so is he suggesting that a safety campaign or contructive debate about these issues be put on hold until the investigation is concluded ?

The rules of disclosure and unused material are vast and confusing, however im quite positive that the opinions of members of the public on a public message forum, will have no impact whatsover on any investigation. The legal system would indeed grind to a halt if they did.

TheBoyBilly

"You are doing nothing wrong, this will have NO impact on any investigation and will do nothing to undermine a prosecution case."

A good point well made. Mr Gilbert has managed to have two threads closed recently because of his opinions. But you will find that in reality he has a controlling mentality but, far from debating an issue (as he insists he does), he resorts to name-calling and insult. I cannot believe the way he tries to order folk about on these forums like he is our elected spokesperson.
Snooks, carry on with your campaign mate, you're doing a fine job.

TheBoyBilly

Oh, I nearly forgot. Gavin - you know what you can do with your red flag :x

Jamey

My first reaction after reading the poster was "only 25? In the whole of the UK? Really?"

I thought the number would be much higher than that and in that respect I guess the poster almost* made me want to forget about it as being insignificant.

I know that sounds really harsh but I'm giving you honest feedback - that's the truth about how it made me feel, for better or worse.

*Almost, but not quite.

moonio

I think what Gavin is trying to say is that in many accident cases it is not the cyclist who was at fault due to undertaking but cars/lorries overtaking and turning left. Something echoed by the London Cycling Campaign here

'As far as we can tell from the limited research into how these crashes happen, about half the deaths happen when the lorry overtakes a cyclist, then slows and turns left across the cyclist who is continuing at a steady rate. It seems that very experienced cyclists are just as much at risk as are the new riders.'


sorry if I am beginning to sound like a scratched record.

Gavin Gilbert

TheBoyBilly wrote:

Oh, I nearly forgot. Gavin - you know what you can do with your red flag :x

on edit: I'll remove my flame - it isn't appropriate given the subject of the topic.

The Moving Target based campaign has it's feet planted in real life, even if they have managed to get their facts wrong about one of the incidents. I've signed up to write to my MP, and being a Hanson shareholder may table a question at the AGM.

Gavin Gilbert

moonio wrote:

I think what Gavin is trying to say is that in many accident cases it is not the cyclist who was at fault due to undertaking but cars/lorries overtaking and turning left.

moonio wins a coconut.

Having had 2 friends involved in KSI cycling incidents, and 1 killed in a very badly reported mountaineering accident I am acutely aware of the upset misguided and self-opinionated comments on web forums can cause. Those killed have parents and partners and friends and at least one had children. Do not underestimate how widely this forum is read. Imagin it was someone you knew having their end conjecturised about.

As for the comments by DOOG442 - as you obviously know about disclosure then you'll also recall there have been a number of trials thrown out due to open discussion in the traditional media. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If charges are pressed against any of the parties involved would you want your post to be the one to derail justice?

snooks

moonio wrote:

I think what Gavin is trying to say is that in many accident cases it is not the cyclist who was at fault due to undertaking but cars/lorries overtaking and turning left. Something echoed by the London Cycling Campaign here

'As far as we can tell from the limited research into how these crashes happen, about half the deaths happen when the lorry overtakes a cyclist, then slows and turns left across the cyclist who is continuing at a steady rate. It seems that very experienced cyclists are just as much at risk as are the new riders.'


sorry if I am beginning to sound like a scratched record.

Don't apologise The more people who read about these sort of incidents the better in my book.

I don't have a problem with what Gavin wrote, he was expressing his opinion (not in the subtlest of ways, but I'm not that sensitive ) and I thought I'd made it clear from the start that I wasn't implying blame on the cyclist (or the HGV)

The LCC quote is a little ambiguous does it mean the lorry overtakes completely, then slows and turns left, in which case the cyclist has gone up the inside of a turning lorry...or does it mean the lorry is overtaking/pulling wide to turn left and catches the cyclist as it turns.

I'm not going to go into the details of any incidents, but in the case of the LCC quote, I believe my flyer/poster thing is relevant. The message I'm hoping to put across is "THINK, Watch out for HGVs" the "don't go up the inside" bit is a reminder. I'm trying to raise people awareness that HGVs can kill cyclists so when they are about (ahead, behind to the left or right) watch out for them.

In the LCC example if I'm being over taken by an HGV, if there is a left turn ahead, I'll slow (be that easing up or a dab the breaks) until it's passed me...I don't have to do it, but the quicker the HGV passes me the less time I'm at danger. Once it's past me I'll stay out of it's way. Now I realise this isn't always the case, and avoiding contact isn't just the job of the cyclist...but it's a good starting point

RockyHopperShow

Do you really think what is written here will have that much affect in a court case?

moonio

snooks wrote:

The LCC quote is a little ambiguous does it mean the lorry overtakes completely, then slows and turns left, in which case the cyclist has gone up the inside of a turning lorry...or does it mean the lorry is overtaking/pulling wide to turn left and catches the cyclist as it turns.

Yes I see what you mean there...

Jay dubbleU

I think you'll find that unless your poster campaign refers to a specific case the it will have no bearing on anything going through the courts - go for it and good luck - even if it only saves one life its worth the effort