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Shouted at a RLJer today

redveeredvee Posts: 11,920
edited September 2008 in Commuting chat
Was sat at a set of lights and a 'fellow' cyclist rides through, stops and waits for the junction to clear then carries on. The lights change and I set off and catch up with the RLJer and ask him "Do you know what the different coloured lights mean?", it looked like he fiddled with his ear and took an earphone out. Got to the next set of lights and was expecting some verbals from him but no, he stopped at the lights.
I've added a signature to prove it is still possible.
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  • "It doesn't matter how many times you look at as you go past, it will still be red"
    As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or cycling helmets approaches one
  • redvee wrote:
    Was sat at a set of lights and a 'fellow' cyclist rides through, stops and waits for the junction to clear then carries on. The lights change and I set off and catch up with the RLJer and ask him "Do you know what the different coloured lights mean?", it looked like he fiddled with his ear and took an earphone out. Got to the next set of lights and was expecting some verbals from him but no, he stopped at the lights.

    There is a junction in Norwich that every cyclist jumps the reds at. It's a nasty corner if you set off at the same time as the cars and there's no ASL. So every single cyclist I've ever seen there goes through the red light and stops in the 4 metres or so of road there is before the junction.

    Yes, technically jumping a red light, but doesn't do anyone any harm.
  • downfaderdownfader Posts: 3,686
    redvee wrote:
    Was sat at a set of lights and a 'fellow' cyclist rides through, stops and waits for the junction to clear then carries on. The lights change and I set off and catch up with the RLJer and ask him "Do you know what the different coloured lights mean?", it looked like he fiddled with his ear and took an earphone out. Got to the next set of lights and was expecting some verbals from him but no, he stopped at the lights.

    There is a junction in Norwich that every cyclist jumps the reds at. It's a nasty corner if you set off at the same time as the cars and there's no ASL. So every single cyclist I've ever seen there goes through the red light and stops in the 4 metres or so of road there is before the junction.

    Yes, technically jumping a red light, but doesn't do anyone any harm.

    You know, if everyone of those cyclists got proactive and campaigned they might have an ASL. :?
  • downfader wrote:
    redvee wrote:
    Was sat at a set of lights and a 'fellow' cyclist rides through, stops and waits for the junction to clear then carries on. The lights change and I set off and catch up with the RLJer and ask him "Do you know what the different coloured lights mean?", it looked like he fiddled with his ear and took an earphone out. Got to the next set of lights and was expecting some verbals from him but no, he stopped at the lights.

    There is a junction in Norwich that every cyclist jumps the reds at. It's a nasty corner if you set off at the same time as the cars and there's no ASL. So every single cyclist I've ever seen there goes through the red light and stops in the 4 metres or so of road there is before the junction.

    Yes, technically jumping a red light, but doesn't do anyone any harm.

    You know, if everyone of those cyclists got proactive and campaigned they might have an ASL. :?


    They might do at some point, I believe that area of the city that is to have some redevelopment done. Quite a few places have had ASL's added in the past couple of years and that's the only junction I can think of that could really do with one.

    However, I don't see what the problem is with cyclists pulling ahead of the cars in that situation. They're not pulling into a lane of traffic or getting in the way of pedestrians. They're not ignoring the red light as they're still coming to a stop they're just doing so in a safer way than stopping at the light. The traffic up to the junction is always horrendously slow, so it's not always possible to get into primary for the lights.
  • I agree with that.

    Are ASL's those pink coloured boxes with strange diagrams of motorbikes in them?
  • Got a strange set of lights on the way into Derby, B6005 think it is, Nottingham Road. Road veers around to the left. Bus/bike lane with the lights on pretty much the apex of the bend. Traffic lights with a junction coming from the right hand side. Cyclists are supposed to merge back into general traffic at the lights. It is safer to go through the red on the bus lane and merge in with the traffic as it joins, from the right/behind. You then get the bonus of a nasty little descent down a potholed/wheelbreaking road, full of predestrians who see you but still play "chicken" as they cross, to get to the bus stop/battered mars bar fish shop! Keeps the flower seller outside the cemetary entertained anyway!
  • redveeredvee Posts: 11,920
    edited September 2008
    I agree with that.

    Are ASL's those pink coloured boxes with strange diagrams of motorbikes in them?

    Yes, there are some odd looking bikes in these things in Bristol, looks like a tandem with only one saddle and bars.
    I've added a signature to prove it is still possible.
  • toshmund wrote:
    Got a strange set of lights on the way into Derby, B6005 think it is, Nottingham Road. Road veers around to the left. Bus/bike lane with the lights on pretty much the apex of the bend. Traffic lights with a junction coming from the right hand side. Cyclists are supposed to merge back into general traffic at the lights. It is safer to go through the red on the bus lane and merge in with the traffic as it joins, from the right/behind. You then get the bonus of a nasty little descent down a potholed/wheelbreaking road, full of predestrians who see you but still play "chicken" as they cross, to get to the bus stop/battered mars bar fish shop! Keeps the flower seller outside the cemetary entertained anyway!

    Hi,

    I went throught that junction last Saturday morning on a early ride out. I sat in the bus lane waiting for the lights to go green, after a minute or so I took the car lane and through the green light for the cars!

    What a mess that junction is.

    I'm sure council planners NEVER ride a bike

    Phil
  • gtvlussogtvlusso Posts: 5,112
    Clever you Redvee - well done, pleased for you.
  • bigmatbigmat Posts: 5,111
    I actually counted the number of traffic lights on my 6.8 mile commute to work this morning - 37. That's quite a lot really. On the basis that the bloke waited for the junction to clear before proceeding, why did you feel the need to shout at him? Sounds like he wasn't endangering himself or anybody else in any way whatsoever. I'm genuinely curious why people get so irate about this - I would say that the vast majority of people I see cycling around London will jump red lights - some do it safely, some idiots do it dangerously, surely they are the ones who should be shouted at?

    I'm genuinely looking for enlightenment here, why is it really such a bad thing to do?!
  • The hostility relates, for me at least, to the unfortunate truth that it makes motorists irate beyond all levels of reason.

    It shouldn't make any difference to their driving, but I think it does. Therefore, when you run a red light, I feel less safe.

    I understand why you do it, but I think that there are side effects. Given that its perfectly possible NOT to rlj, I wish people wouldn't.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,692
    redvee - did it make you feel good shouting at the cyclist?

    Can't you just carry on with your life and not let "RLJ'ers" bother you so much? Jeez.
  • bigmatbigmat Posts: 5,111
    That's kind of what I figured it must come down to - but isn't that just pandering to the whims of irrational car drivers? And whilst its a valid argument, especially if it impacts on safety for other cyclists, is that really why people on here get so wound up about the whole thing? Also, its strange how we suddenly become visible going through a red light, when we're pretty much invisible to traffic the rest of the time!
  • MatHammond wrote:
    That's kind of what I figured it must come down to - but isn't that just pandering to the whims of irrational car drivers? And whilst its a valid argument, especially if it impacts on safety for other cyclists, is that really why people on here get so wound up about the whole thing? Also, its strange how we suddenly become visible going through a red light, when we're pretty much invisible to traffic the rest of the time!

    Its not proportionate, I agree. But until we can improve relations about a billion %, that life. It doesn't imact anyone else's safety to stop them running a red light.

    To be honest, I think that cyclists should be able to proceed across box junctions diring the pedestrian cycle of lights. But it isn't legal and motorists seem to regard indiscrssions by cyclists to be somehow a million times worse than flooring it on amber or going twice the speed limint. Since they have large metal boxes and we don't I prefer to pander in this regard.

    To put it in context, I am a VERY assertive cyclist and I'm not afraid to hammer liberally on bodywork, and to enter into educational debates with driver's who have just tried to kill me in order to come to a stop behind another car sooner. RLJing would deprive me of the moral high ground. :?
  • CorianderCoriander Posts: 1,326
    The hostility relates, for me at least, to the unfortunate truth that it makes motorists irate beyond all levels of reason.

    It shouldn't make any difference to their driving, but I think it does. Therefore, when you run a red light, I feel less safe.

    I understand why you do it, but I think that there are side effects. Given that its perfectly possible NOT to rlj, I wish people wouldn't.

    I completely agree with you AT - other people's RLJing ultimately makes my ride more dangerous.

    Also - if you want to be treated with respect and like an equal vehicle on the road then act like one. You are, after all, a vehicle on the road and therefore all the rules of the road apply to you.
  • elliebellieb Posts: 436
    The point is: the car drivers are not being irrational, because it IS illegal, no matter how 'safe' it might be. I get fed up with the number of occasions when in a dispute with a ped/car driver they bring up the behaviour of cyclists as a justification for their own poor road use. Don't give them the excuse.
  • bigmatbigmat Posts: 5,111
    It just seems so ridiculous stopping and waiting for no apparent reason (other than the red light) sometimes. Some lights are ridiculous, with sequences of up to a minute where NO traffic is allowed to proceed whatsoever. And with 37 sets to negotiate, I reckon if I stopped at every single red light it would add a good ten minutes on to my journey (erm, not really that long when I put it like that...)

    By the way, when people are raising the "strict compliance with the law" argument, do those people also never exceed 70mph on motorways and never cross a road without the green man?

    I might give not RLJing a go, but I reckon I'd be in a very small minority. Which is strange given that reading this forum I would appear to be in the minority for doing it in the first place...
  • _Brun__Brun_ Posts: 1,740
    The hostility relates, for me at least, to the unfortunate truth that it makes motorists irate beyond all levels of reason.
    Where's there any proof of that 'truth'? If it's what appears in the comments on the Daily Mail website etc, I don't understand why so much credence is given to it, while simultaneously disregarding most other opinions as absolute guff. I reckon it's top of driver's list of pet hates about the likes of us because it's very visible, illegal, and is another reason why we get around far quicker than anyone in cars.

    If all cyclists in Central London started religiously obeying red lights, there'd probably be a three or four fold increase in the number of bikes at the head of the queue everytime the lights turned green. I'm very confident that drivers would soon realise that being held up while a dozen cyclists of various abilities sorted themselves out, is much more frustrating than witnessing them sporadically jumping the lights while they're held at a red.
  • Didn't your mum ever tell you that 2 wrongs don't make a right?

    I don't think you'd be in a minority, btw, just an inconspicuous majority.
  • CorianderCoriander Posts: 1,326
    _Brun_ wrote:
    The hostility relates, for me at least, to the unfortunate truth that it makes motorists irate beyond all levels of reason.
    Where's there any proof of that 'truth'?

    Because I stop at red lights I am there when car drivers shout at the RLJing cyclists or hit their horns in frustration and anger. I also talk to friends and family who drive and they get incandescent with rage if I gingerly raise the subject of RLJing. The behaviour of a (sizeable) minority affects reaction towards the entire cycling community.
  • CorianderCoriander Posts: 1,326
    MatHammond wrote:
    It just seems so ridiculous stopping and waiting for no apparent reason (other than the red light) sometimes. Some lights are ridiculous, with sequences of up to a minute where NO traffic is allowed to proceed whatsoever. And with 37 sets to negotiate, I reckon if I stopped at every single red light it would add a good ten minutes on to my journey (erm, not really that long when I put it like that...)

    If you extend your logic, you presumably are perfectly happy for every car driver to decide which lights he stops at or for how long. Just grow up and realise you are a vehicle on the road and the rules of the road apply equally to you.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,692
    MatHammond - most people come on here to spout ideological claptrap and to talk down from their highhorses. Whether their views represent the majority i don't know.

    I don't personally jump red lights, but i don't get all het up when i see others doing it. That's their beef. Similarly, i didn't get irate when a headphone-wearing pedestrian walked out into the road this morning and nearly got hurt badly by me. Neither of us got hurt, let's move on. 8)
  • gtvlussogtvlusso Posts: 5,112
    Ah - The ol' RLJ debate breaking out again.....well, you're all wrong RLJ is good if you have the courage, conviction and fire in your belly and you are any good as a cyclist....and the junction is easy to figure out (light sequence and traffic direction). Never stop, never give up and keep above 20mph and you'll be fine.

    So, You live in your world and I will live in mine - my world moves faster......and I will be home before you. 10 years + man and boy doing it - so don't give me the "it's unsafe" bullshit - it is as safe as you make it and your observations. And I don't give a damn what the law says on this.....

    17 years on motorbikes (road racing, advanced instructor certification)
    16 years car (raced a Jag for a year, but it was boring and expensive)
    10 years + on bicycles (commuting, road racing, triathlon and MTB)

    Occasionally, I go to work too....

    I am experienced anough to make my own decisions and probably would not take kindly to a "talking to".....see the thread about "Your worst reaction when commuting".
  • gtvlussogtvlusso Posts: 5,112
    Hopefully, the above has wound a few of you up for the Friday rush home! Go on - you know you want to!!!!!
  • MatHammond wrote:
    It just seems so ridiculous stopping and waiting for no apparent reason (other than the red light) sometimes. Some lights are ridiculous, with sequences of up to a minute where NO traffic is allowed to proceed whatsoever. And with 37 sets to negotiate, I reckon if I stopped at every single red light it would add a good ten minutes on to my journey (erm, not really that long when I put it like that...)

    .

    But why is everyone in such a blind rush these days. I'll tell you I'm in no hurry to get into work. I wait for all the red lights and still get in 30 mins quicker than public transport. I'm sure if I jumped reds I'd get home 2.5 mins quicker, but really 2.5 mins isn't that important in the grand scheme...

    If I want to hoon it non stop then I head for the Surrey Hills, or my parent's home down in Sussex where the roads are long (and emptyish) if you know where to look. I maybe spend 25 mins waiting at red lights a week, and you know what, I reckon I can live with that. Anyway, it's good thinking time.
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  • I get narked off with it for a different reason.

    I don't jump the lights, although if there is no ASL, (or, as is increasingly the case on Blackfriars road turning into The Cut, a Taxi is sitting in it) I'll sit on or just ahead of the white line so I can have some space and make the traffic behind aware of me.

    So imagine how annoying it is when you've got past the five or six slow-censored cyclists only for them to jump the light and get ahead again, only for you to have to overtake, an often risky manoeuvre.

    It seems to be the poor cyclists who break the most rules, and generally a poor cyclist is also pretty slow.
  • bigmatbigmat Posts: 5,111
    If you extend your logic, you presumably are perfectly happy for every car driver to decide which lights he stops at or for how long. Just grow up and realise you are a vehicle on the road and the rules of the road apply equally to you.[/quote]

    Not saying that at all - its a totally different proposition to drive through a red light in a car. You pose a far greater threat to others, you lack the ability to make a quick decision on change of trajectory, and if you get caught you will (in theory) face a hefty penalty. Bikes are not cars. There is no need to pretend they are. They fall somewhere between motor vehicles and pedestrians in terms of how they fit into the whole vehicular hierarchy. There are things you can do on a bike (like have a couple of beers in a country pub) that just aren't acceptable in a car.

    And you didn't answer my previous question about whether you slavishly follow every single law across the board, or just on a bike. I need to grow up a lot less than you need to get real.
  • Surreal experience at the South of Lambeth Bridge this morning. Two cyclists and I pull up at the ASL waiting for the light to go green at the roundabout - blocking the route forward. Two other people on bikes RLJ, one boldly, one sneakily - as if creeping across at 2mph makes it right :evil:

    Cyclist 1 shouts at the RLJers. Cyclist 2 starts 'discussing' with cyclist 1; something along the lines of: why can't they RLJ as cars encroach on the ASL (apologies if you are reading this and that doesn't fairly reflect your opinion as put). The 'discussion' gets so 'involved' that neither of them noticed the lights change to green :roll: Cue beeps from the cars and vans being held up.

    On a personal note, I just shake my head (hoping that any affected drivers recognise that not all cyclists RLJ or think it is acceptable). I don't intervene.

    Stuart

    PS, yep, I do break the law. I have speeded, for example (3pts + £60). Doesn't make it right; doesn't justify other wrong things being done; and I'm not proud of it.
  • cjcpcjcp Posts: 13,345
    I'll tell you I'm in no hurry to get into work.

    Precisely! :) There are very few RLJers who I don't seem to catch up at some point on the commute anyway, be it because they're slower riders or because the volume of traffic doesn't allow them to get away, in which case, surely you'll just get more frustrated if you're an RLJer because you're being held up all the time, so perhaps they should just chill out :) .
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
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  • Exactly, who wants to get to work on time?! If you're worried about being late, leave the house 5 minutes earlier. Problem solved.
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