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CW Wednesday Comment

iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
edited August 2008 in Pro race
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/The ... 66143.html

On the subject of doping, Brailsford has never been anything other than straight-talking

Uh huh - Has he? What about during the Hayles incident where he was randomly wheeling out the bizarre excuses "Must be cod liver oil and cherry juice"

I'm not saying they're doped but he's said things which have raised my eyebrows from time to time.
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.

Posts

  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Just so no one thinks I'm making stuff up.

    Brailsford, who is an outspoken critic of drug-taking and insists on rigorous in-house testing of his riders, believes Hayles is innocent. He thinks the blood haematocrit test may be outdated and suspects that British riders record high levels as a result of the team's innovative nutritional and training practices. His riders consume large amounts of substances like cod liver oil and cherry juices and their haematocrit levels tend to rise when, unlike most of their rivals, they cut down sharply on their physical training just before a major event.

    It's like a Landis defense, innit?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • LangerDanLangerDan Posts: 6,132
    My personal favourite in the CW Apostle's Anti-Creed ("I do not believe......") is

    I simply do not believe that Dave Brailsford and the rest of the coaching staff would use National Lottery money which is, after all, the public's money, carefully allocated by order of the Government, to dope riders.

    I mean, IF you were about to instigate a massive, highly sophisticated doping programme and all of a sudden you go "We can't do this. This is public money we're talking about", you have a rather twisted set of values. Is a T-Mobile doping programme more acceptable because it uses private / shareholder money?

    In any case, the most significant doping programmes in sport history used, to quote LB, "the public's money, carefully allocated by order of the Government, to dope riders"
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • Well they don't have our glorious record of suspicious/confiscated gold yet langerdan :(
    FWIW I know the team doctor and think they are clean as a team though individually I have no idea.
    Dan
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    I honestly believe that the GB track team are clean. OK - you dont know what each individual is up to - but I cant see that there is any organised doping going on there.
    Boardman was always clean and he's part of the set up.
    And it is the 'set up' that gives them their improvements - pro teams were largely individuals with a few training camps a year - these guys are a team all year round.
  • moray_gubmoray_gub Posts: 3,328
    iainf72 wrote:
    Just so no one thinks I'm making stuff up.

    Brailsford, who is an outspoken critic of drug-taking and insists on rigorous in-house testing of his riders, believes Hayles is innocent. He thinks the blood haematocrit test may be outdated and suspects that British riders record high levels as a result of the team's innovative nutritional and training practices. His riders consume large amounts of substances like cod liver oil and cherry juices and their haematocrit levels tend to rise when, unlike most of their rivals, they cut down sharply on their physical training just before a major event.

    It's like a Landis defense, innit?

    So just how indicative of doping is an above 50% haematocrit level then ?

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    Oh and even David Walsh was saying that he thinks Team GB is clean. So if he's not got a sniff of doping ?
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Moray Gub wrote:

    So just how indicative of doping is an above 50% haematocrit level then ?

    Pantani had one. As did Ricco. :roll:

    Dr Ferrari reckons it's pointless as a measure. But then maybe a pioneering doctor in EPO in sport might say that?

    It's not the greatest measure but you have to admit, suddenly going over 50% just before a major competition must set of alarm bells?

    The GB team could well be clean - Maybe. Mind you, how many of them ride for Barloworld as pro's?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    cougie wrote:
    Iindividuals with a few training camps a year - these guys are a team all year round.

    ?

    Wiggins, Thomas, Cummings, Cavendish - These guys spend more time riding for their trade teams.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    Oh yeah - I forgot about the pursuiters - but not even all the pursuiters are continental pros. Look at Hoy, Staff, Kenny, Romero, Houvenagel, etc. And even the pros have spent a fair bit of time working with the rest of the team. Its not like the old days when the team would almost meet for the first time in competition.
  • moray_gubmoray_gub Posts: 3,328
    iainf72 wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:

    So just how indicative of doping is an above 50% haematocrit level then ?

    Pantani had one. As did Ricco. :roll:

    Dr Ferrari reckons it's pointless as a measure. But then maybe a pioneering doctor in EPO in sport might say that?

    It's not the greatest measure but you have to admit, suddenly going over 50% just before a major competition must set of alarm bells?

    The GB team could well be clean - Maybe. Mind you, how many of them ride for Barloworld as pro's?


    So its not much of a measure at all really then given that there are cyclists out there with a level above 50% who are allowed to compete .(Wegelius ,Cunego). Im not sure i get the Barloworld reference, are you saying becuase Dueno test positive for EPO that somehow that makes Cummings and Thomas dopers ? If so that is a fairly wild imagination you got going on there

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Moray Gub wrote:
    [So its not much of a measure at all really then given that there are cyclists out there with a level above 50% who are allowed to compete .(Wegelius ,Cunego). Im not sure i get the Barloworld reference, are you saying becuase Dueno test positive for EPO that somehow that makes Cummings and Thomas dopers ? If so that is a fairly wild imagination you got going on there

    Yes, Ricco had one of those certificates too.

    No, I'm not saying they're dopers at all. I'm saying they're not always under the guise of BC. Corti doesn't exactly have a reputation for playing nice - They're not always in this lovely bubble.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • leguapeleguape Posts: 986
    iainf72 wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:

    So just how indicative of doping is an above 50% haematocrit level then ?

    Pantani had one. As did Ricco. :roll:

    Dr Ferrari reckons it's pointless as a measure. But then maybe a pioneering doctor in EPO in sport might say that?

    It's not the greatest measure but you have to admit, suddenly going over 50% just before a major competition must set of alarm bells?

    The GB team could well be clean - Maybe. Mind you, how many of them ride for Barloworld as pro's?

    And when he was tested for the next fortnight or more it dropped back down to low mid 40s which is where Rob's haemocrit has been for most of his career. He's registered 48 before, according to the Richard Moore book, before the Commonwealths. If you are doped it doesn't tend to spike like that, it stays level and tails off gradually. Hayles was given a clean bill of health by the UCI as far as I'm aware, just as the dutch kid was who also tipped the scales.
  • dealdeal Posts: 857
    when should be expect wada to add cherry juice to the prohibited list ? :roll:
  • Jez monJez mon Posts: 3,809
    I've just been reading the pantani book...

    When pantani had his blood troubles, it wasn't just his hct which was abnormal...there where a who range of values which made him look suspect of serious doping. IF Rob was doping then surely he would have various odd values which would have warranted further examination.

    IF there was a serious well organised doping program than Hayles wouldn't have tested positive in a month of Sundays. Just look at USPS, who most people believe where doped to the gills, but never returned a positive test, or the USA athletics team.
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Jez mon wrote:
    When pantani had his blood troubles, it wasn't just his hct which was abnormal...there where a who range of values which made him look suspect of serious doping. IF Rob was doping then surely he would have various odd values which would have warranted further examination.

    Sure - But then, Basso's blood results were held up in 06 as an example of how everything was good and I believe they looked at OFF score and the like.

    Also someone applied took Landis' blood results from 06, applied the analysis techniques used on VDV and Millar in this years Tour by Ashendon and they looked normal.

    Hayles, for me at least, is not the interesting part of this. The reaction to it from BCF is.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Jez monJez mon Posts: 3,809
    Well what were the BCF meant to say. OK cherry juice and rest sounds silly, but, he forgot to drink his litre of water before the blood test would be an outright admission of doping! They couldn't keep quiet either.

    I suppose the thing is; good doping lead by a team with knowledgeable doctors = no positive tests. Doping by someone who seeks out their own stuff from shady doctors = possible positive tests.
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • leguapeleguape Posts: 986
    the last bit goes on about how it's now BC's job to take cycling into schools etc. Er, wasn't that what the Sky deal was all about? When was the last time CW dipped deeply to do something grassroots. After all, they're part of one of the biggest publishing groups in Britain, IPC, surely they can find a few quid to invest a bit back into grass roots things as the UK's biggest cycling mag. Any ideas what sort of investment in grassroots they do themselves?
  • On a slightly unrelated note there was that story on CFA the other day taken from the Guardian (I think) where Brailsford has basically said in an anecdote that he could decide when riders were tested. As you can imagine the reponse from CFA is worth reading, was last Thurs if anyone's interested.

    As for IPC chipping in, well I think the whole magazine market is in a bit of a downturn at the moment, and am sure I read an article about some cuts at IPC last month. Could be wrong though. Still I'm sure they could reinvest the ad revenue they've been getting from Rock Racing all year in grass roots couldn't they? :D
  • 16simon16simon Posts: 154
    Talking of cherry juice, does anyone know where I can buy some? None of the major supermarkets seem to sell it.

    I'm not expecting to boost my haematocrit to over 50% :D but I read that BC use it because it aids recovery after hard training.
  • OFOABOFOAB Posts: 905
    Can I assume from this cod liver oil and cherry juice precedent that if homoeopathic methodologies of advantaging riders are developed, artificial performance enhancing drugs will no longer be needed. And with one bound the doping issue is resolved!
    I wish I was any place but the someplace I\'m in
  • LangerDanLangerDan Posts: 6,132
    OFOAB wrote:
    Can I assume from this cod liver oil and cherry juice precedent that if homoeopathic methodologies of advantaging riders are developed, artificial performance enhancing drugs will no longer be needed. And with one bound the doping issue is resolved!

    Until unsavoury foreign squads start using the juice from genetically-modified cherries and the UCI will have to police a maximum permitted juice content of 50%. Riders will be caught with cans of concentrate in their rooms along with the associated paraphenalia such as tin openers and some will start using experimental smoothies before there are available tests.
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • slojoslojo Posts: 56
    16simon wrote:
    Talking of cherry juice, does anyone know where I can buy some? None of the major supermarkets seem to sell it.

    www.cherryactive.co.uk

    No, I don't have shares.
  • 16simon16simon Posts: 154
    thanks! bit more expensive than i was expecting....
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