Wheels - aero or lightweight - what to go for - i am confuse
Looking at wheels just now
Have done a search here and noted various opinions about aero v weight.
If I am doing general fastish road stuff (non TT) i.e sportives/low level road race, should I be more concerned about the weight rather than the "Aeroness".
wheels I have been looking at are Easton EA90 SLX or Ksyrium SL
Have done a search here and noted various opinions about aero v weight.
If I am doing general fastish road stuff (non TT) i.e sportives/low level road race, should I be more concerned about the weight rather than the "Aeroness".
wheels I have been looking at are Easton EA90 SLX or Ksyrium SL
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Comments
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Aero trumps mass at 12mph and above.
So an Aero wheel is normally good if you aren't doing much slow climbing.
Ideally a a low weight aero wheel is best.Rabcp wrote:wheels I have been looking at are Easton EA90 SLX or Ksyrium SL
Neither are "aero", Ksyruims look aero but they aint, so I'd go for the Easton wheels.0 -
Thanks Cheeseyjoe
Wasn't sure at what speed "aeroness" kicked in so very helpful.
The reason I asked is I had looked at the Ksyriums but had read somewhere that they were very "un Aero"0 -
CheeseyJoe wrote:Aero trumps mass at 12mph and above.
So an Aero wheel is normally good if you aren't doing much slow climbing.
Ideally a a low weight aero wheel is best.Rabcp wrote:wheels I have been looking at are Easton EA90 SLX or Ksyrium SL
Neither are "aero", Ksyruims look aero but they aint, so I'd go for the Easton wheels.
That's right, in fact they're amongst the most un-aero wheels out there and they're not even that light. Depending on your budget i'd recommend these:
http://www.rolfprima.com/products-ElanRS.php
I have a pair and they are brilliant (the quoted weight includes rim tape and skewers) but they do cost about £700pm0 -
CheeseyJoe wrote:Aero trumps mass at 12mph and above.
So an Aero wheel is normally good if you aren't doing much slow climbing.
Ideally a a low weight aero wheel is best.Rabcp wrote:wheels I have been looking at are Easton EA90 SLX or Ksyrium SL
Neither are "aero", Ksyruims look aero but they aint, so I'd go for the Easton wheels.
Just out of curiosity, where did this 12 MPH figure come from :?: :?:
Dennis Noward0 -
dennisn wrote:CheeseyJoe wrote:Aero trumps mass at 12mph and above.
So an Aero wheel is normally good if you aren't doing much slow climbing.
Ideally a a low weight aero wheel is best.Rabcp wrote:wheels I have been looking at are Easton EA90 SLX or Ksyrium SL
Neither are "aero", Ksyruims look aero but they aint, so I'd go for the Easton wheels.
Just out of curiosity, where did this 12 MPH figure come from :?: :?:
Dennis Noward
Weightweenies - they are normally right on the subject...0 -
redddraggon wrote:dennisn wrote:CheeseyJoe wrote:Aero trumps mass at 12mph and above.
So an Aero wheel is normally good if you aren't doing much slow climbing.
Ideally a a low weight aero wheel is best.Rabcp wrote:wheels I have been looking at are Easton EA90 SLX or Ksyrium SL
Neither are "aero", Ksyruims look aero but they aint, so I'd go for the Easton wheels.
Just out of curiosity, where did this 12 MPH figure come from :?: :?:
Dennis Noward
Weightweenies - they are normally right on the subject...
Just sounds a little weird. Not 11 MPH, not 13 MPH, but exactly 12 MPH is the big change
between the two. I'm going to have to play devils advocate and say "Show me the
science and / or proof". :? :?
Dennis Noward0 -
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If you're racing 4th cat you'll likely be caught ina crash at some point, so go for the repairability of conventional 32 spoke wheels - groupset hubs on open pro rims. They will also give you the reliability you need for sportives.0
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I remember reading something a while back that suggested true aero rims started at about 38mm deep, everything under this gave such little aero benefit it was outweighed by the extra weight.0
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robbarker wrote:If you're racing 4th cat you'll likely be caught ina crash at some point, so go for the repairability of conventional 32 spoke wheels - groupset hubs on open pro rims. They will also give you the reliability you need for sportives.
Listen to this guy. He knows what he's talking about. If you want a wheel that really
looks like a "pro" wheel you can spend thousands, but it won't make you faster than
a good set of conventional hand builts. Case in point is myself. I have been riding a set of 32 spoke hand builts as of late. Last week I switched over to my HED 3 rear and 20 spoke front(no reason other than to use the tires they had on them). Did I burn up the roads
as everyone would have you believe? Yeah, right.
So why have a HED 3 you ask? Got a good buy on it. Great wheel, I ride it a lot. Never needs truing and seems to just as sturdy as any other wheel I own.
Dennis Noward0 -
Just to add another option into the mix I have the Easton ea90 aero tt - they have a bigger rim, 32mm so nearing the number quoted above, but are pretty light still. Certainlt feel faster than my previous wheel set - albeit they should do as they're a step up in value.0
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pedlad wrote:Just to add another option into the mix I have the Easton ea90 aero tt - they have a bigger rim, 32mm so nearing the number quoted above, but are pretty light still. Certainlt feel faster than my previous wheel set - albeit they should do as they're a step up in value.
Have to admit, I am considering the Easton EA90 Aero too, this was part of the reason I was asking the question. I see there is a difference of nearly 100grams (the EA90 Aero is heavier than the SLX), is this weight offset by significant improvement of Aerodynamics?
How do you find the Aero wheels - are they a harsh ride or ok? What made you go for them over the SLX?
So many questions0 -
I'd go for robust. If one is climbing slowly (that is something I do a lot ) then going aero is not worth it. However on the descents it would be - as would reliable braking.
I have been riding some Planet X Carbon rim clinchers around the less than montainous terrain of Cambridgeshire. They are nice and aero but not particularly light. However they will never be going near any Alpine hairpin bends because I doubt I could cope with the braking characteristics of the carbon rims
I have ridden hand builts, Campag Neutrons and Fulcrum Racing 1's in cyclosportifs. The lightest were the hand builts. The heaviest were the Fulcrums. Did I notice a difference during the rides? No. They all worked well. The bike frame had a much greater bearing on things.
Oops that does not really answer the question......0 -
dennisn wrote:
Listen to this guy. He knows what he's talking about. If you want a wheel that really
looks like a "pro" wheel you can spend thousands, but it won't make you faster than
a good set of conventional hand builts.
Im sorry, but that is complete nonsense. a pair of Zipp 404s will be faster than a set of 32 spoke handbuilts in 99.999% of cases (the 0.001% being when the rider cant control them in a crosswind) - i defy you to provide any data which suggests otherwise. I actually cant get my head around how you came to this conclusion, there is masses of data which shows the wattage benefits of using low spoke count aero wheels.
I train on Open Pro/ Ultegra wheels, have a set of HED alps (soon to be a pair of JET C2s) and the difference between them is night and day. The HEDs are lighter and much, much more aero which = more speed.
Planet X Carbons are a bargain for what they are.
If your looking to spend a bit more, but your budget wont stretch to Zipps, HED jet/jet C2's are another option.0 -
System wrote:I remember reading something a while back that suggested true aero rims started at about 38mm deep, everything under this gave such little aero benefit it was outweighed by the extra weight.
Every wheel, no matter how deep it is, will perform differently from an aeroynamics standpoint.
Zipp 202's are designed primarilly to be an uber lightweight climbing wheel - yet Zipp tests them in the wind tunnel. just because a wheel is shallow doesnt mean it cant be designed with aerodynamics in mind. By the same theory, just because a wheelset is deep and looks aero, doesnt mean it is.
http://idata.over-blog.com/0/02/72/10/T ... nglish.jpg
http://www.zipp.com/Portals/0/Technolog ... lyer_2.pdf
Look there for the effects aero wheels have.
A pair of 808s (easilly doable on a road bike for a stronger rider) vs a pair of Ksyriums is over 30W - that is huge, provide some data before you try to tell me aero wheels dont make you faster...0 -
I went for light weight as I spend a lot of time climbing up hills. Really made the bike feel a lot lighter and more fun.
Bear in mind that if you are cycling in a bunch I believe the aero-ness of your wheels is not going to be very helpful, it is only in a breakaway/TT situation that you get the benfit (note open to correction on this.)
Note I only have experience of light weight vs heavy wheels, don't have any that could claim to be "aero."
Rebuildability is worth considering too.0 -
Wind-tunnel tests are often manipulated to suit the needs of the maker so need to be treated with a degree of scepticism - test are often conducted without a rider on the bike and in 'clean' air rather than with a rider aboard and sitting in a bunch. Take for example a pair of Mavic Carbones which are a hefty 1800g a pair against a pair a sub-1500g wheels - in a race, the additional effort and energy consumed in spinning-up the extra 300g through every corner is going to be far more tiring that any potential aero advantage - aero is great provided the wheels weigh no more than regular wheels, but for bunch riding and hills give me the lighter wheels every time. IME aero wheel advantage only really kicks-in at above 50kph. There's a lot of forum bull about the advantage of wheels - mainly from people who haven't actually used them and just recounting a certain popular brand's marketing spiel!Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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Can't see any reason why aero wheels wouldn't help in a bunch - the effect might be less, but then the total aero drag is less.blorg wrote:Bear in mind that if you are cycling in a bunch I believe the aero-ness of your wheels is not going to be very helpful, it is only in a breakaway/TT situation that you get the benfit (note open to correction on this.)
In any case, unless you plan to spend your whole time stuck in a bunch, it's surely when you're out front on your own - whether that's in a break, or just doing your turn in a group in a sportive - that your power output matters anyway.0 -
It really depends on your own style and preferences. Aero wheels are great in that they are relatively easy to keep at a high pace. They are usually much stiffer than lightweight wheels as well. However, due to the fact that wheels add rotational weight (which has a much greater effect than stationary weight, such as a frame or saddle), heavier, more aero wheels sacrifice a little in acceleration. Usually, (not always) lighter riders who are better climbers prefer lightweight, lower profile wheels. Lighter riders also have to worry about being blown around by crosswinds, so huge aero wheels are not usually preferred. Bigger riders who are good in breaks or don't do a lot of climbing will find aero wheels to be more preferable. Of course the best of both worlds would be to have a lightweight aero wheel such as the Zipp 303 or 404. If you are looking for something more economical, look at the FSA RD-600 (From my experience, the problems listed in most reviews have been solved) or the Campy Eurus. I would not recommend the Mavic Cosmic Elite, which is at the same price range, as it feels considerably softer than the other two. Bottom line, look at your budget, look at your style, and try out a few demo sets if you have access.0
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I know we don't like numbers round here, but let's do some anyway...Monty Dog wrote:Take for example a pair of Mavic Carbones which are a hefty 1800g a pair against a pair a sub-1500g wheels - in a race, the additional effort and energy consumed in spinning-up the extra 300g through every corner is going to be far more tiring that any potential aero advantage
Assuming that 300g is all at the edge of the rim (it's not, but I'm trying to make your case as good as possible), then at 25mph the total KE (rotational and linear) of that extra 300g is 37.5J. At 15mph the total KE is 13.5J. If you accelerate up from 15 to 25mph in 10s then that's an extra 2.4W - just for the time you are accelerating out of the corner (out of a total of 320W for the acceleration, not to mention the power required for the aero drag, which will be of the order of another 300W at 25mph).
However let's look at aero now. If we take an AC420 - has a 34mm alu rim, so probably a little less aero than a cosmic - that's takes ~25W at 50km/h. Then how about a Hyperon for an example of a light wheel - that takes ~32W at 50km/h. If we scale that back to 20mph (32km/h) on the basis that power is proportional to the cube of speed, then the AC420 is 6.6W and the Hypron 8.4W, so 1.8W difference. This means that even in the middle of your 10s acceleration you're only actually saving 0.6W (and that's ignoring the back wheel), whilst when cruising at 25mph the non-aero but light wheels are costing you 3.5W!
Care to rethink your conclusion?0 -
Hi there.
Thanks aracer - that's exactly the conclusion I came to last year, and hence why I've been riding cosmics for all my bunch riding this year (except when the weather is very wet).
1800g isn't heavy, but the advantage of these wheels over 1500g full carbon aero wheels is that they survive the rough and tumble a little better.
Incidentally I swapped my 1800g cosmics for 1500g eastons one weekend as a friend wanted more aero wheels for a race. I really couldn't tell the difference in weight, whether climbing or sprinting out of corners.
Cheers, Andy0 -
Parsnip49 wrote:dennisn wrote:
Listen to this guy. He knows what he's talking about. If you want a wheel that really
looks like a "pro" wheel you can spend thousands, but it won't make you faster than
a good set of conventional hand builts.
Im sorry, but that is complete nonsense. a pair of Zipp 404s will be faster than a set of 32 spoke handbuilts in 99.999% of cases (the 0.001% being when the rider cant control them in a crosswind) - i defy you to provide any data which suggests otherwise. I actually cant get my head around how you came to this conclusion, there is masses of data which shows the wattage benefits of using low spoke count aero wheels.
I train on Open Pro/ Ultegra wheels, have a set of HED alps (soon to be a pair of JET C2s) and the difference between them is night and day. The HEDs are lighter and much, much more aero which = more speed.
Planet X Carbons are a bargain for what they are.
If your looking to spend a bit more, but your budget wont stretch to Zipps, HED jet/jet C2's are another option.
I am not convinced the difference zipps or any toher wheels make with respect to speed unless your a top end cyclist.
I have a track bike with zipps and have ridden exact same bike with campag shamal with hp's and go no faster.
I also have Most Charisma (corrima ssl premium) dura ace carbon laminate and a cheap pair of Mavics, and guess what, in racing I do not go any faster with the expensive ones compared to Mavics.
Ok if your Bradley Wiggins in a TT there may be a slight difference as he is so consistent but for us lot of average guys, it is more dependent how your feeling on a particular day and what effort you can give.
So I would go for the dura ace CL wheel which seems to be my best wheels, (though not most expensive)0 -
Well you wouldn't - the difference to your acceleration is <1%, whilst the difference climbing is <0.5% (unless your real name is Emma Pooley). If you do long enough climbs, that will make a very slight difference to your times (~5s over 20 minutes), though that's not a big enough difference for you to notice.andrewgturnbull wrote:Incidentally I swapped my 1800g cosmics for 1500g eastons one weekend as a friend wanted more aero wheels for a race. I really couldn't tell the difference in weight, whether climbing or sprinting out of corners.0 -
i still want to test what the human perception threshold is for weight difference in wheels - need to find a way of fixing some fishing weights into a rim of one of two sets of wheels. anyone want to co-operate with me in running the test?
I like aero wheels, especially carbon tubs.0 -
Parsnip49 wrote:dennisn wrote:
Listen to this guy. He knows what he's talking about. If you want a wheel that really
looks like a "pro" wheel you can spend thousands, but it won't make you faster than
a good set of conventional hand builts.
Im sorry, but that is complete nonsense. a pair of Zipp 404s will be faster than a set of 32 spoke handbuilts in 99.999% of cases (the 0.001% being when the rider cant control them in a crosswind) - i defy you to provide any data which suggests otherwise. I actually cant get my head around how you came to this conclusion, there is masses of data which shows the wattage benefits of using low spoke count aero wheels.
I train on Open Pro/ Ultegra wheels, have a set of HED alps (soon to be a pair of JET C2s) and the difference between them is night and day. The HEDs are lighter and much, much more aero which = more speed.
Planet X Carbons are a bargain for what they are.
If your looking to spend a bit more, but your budget wont stretch to Zipps, HED jet/jet C2's are another option.
If what I say is complete nonsense then please explain to me why my HED 3(billed as
the fastest spoked wheel on earth - or something like that) and my aero 20 spoke front
wheel(both tubulars by the way) didn't register, at the very least, a "stunning" increase in
speed over my set of hand built clinchers(well, tubular clinchers). The hand builts were
only Ultegra hubs, 32(dare I say it) 3 cross, straight gauge spokes with(oh my god)
brass nipples, Velocity rims(nothing special) and Tufo tubular clinchers. By all accounts
nothing but junk training wheels. So why didn't I become at least 5 MPH faster? And I
really don't think expecting a 5 MPH gain is that much given the hype and cost of these
wheels over hand builts. Oh I know why, I forgot to use ceramic bearings, don't have a power meter, and forgot my GPS. Whoa, starting to rant again.
:roll: :roll:
Dennis Noward0 -
I go a lot faster with new wheels-getting away from the wife when she sees the credit card bill! :roll:0
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billybiker wrote:I go a lot faster with new wheels-getting away from the wife when she sees the credit card bill! :roll:
Ya got that right.
Dennis Noward0 -
Monty Dog wrote:Wind-tunnel tests are often manipulated to suit the needs of the maker so need to be treated with a degree of scepticism - test are often conducted without a rider on the bike and in 'clean' air rather than with a rider aboard and sitting in a bunch. Take for example a pair of Mavic Carbones which are a hefty 1800g a pair against a pair a sub-1500g wheels - in a race, the additional effort and energy consumed in spinning-up the extra 300g through every corner is going to be far more tiring that any potential aero advantage - aero is great provided the wheels weigh no more than regular wheels, but for bunch riding and hills give me the lighter wheels every time. IME aero wheel advantage only really kicks-in at above 50kph. There's a lot of forum bull about the advantage of wheels - mainly from people who haven't actually used them and just recounting a certain popular brand's marketing spiel!
If you looked at the zipp tests, they are done with cancellara on the bike, while pedalling.
The other test i assume is just for the wheel its self in a jig.
You wont notice spinning the extra weight up in a corner. You would notice it after a huge climb, but lets face it, the majority on this forum live in the UK, not the alps.
Im sure ive relieved myself of over 300g or excess weight before most of my races - its not a significant amount for the aero advantage gained with an aero wheel.
Read the above, the aero advantage trumps weight at about 12mph, not the 50kph you guess at.
As for " a certain popular brand's marketing spiel!" zipp tunnel tests its wheels for a reason - to make them aero. look at the other test i posted, the 808 coms out on top - coincidence? i think not.
Granted, my experience of Zipp wheels is limited to a brief 20mile ride on a pair of 404s belonging to a mate before i decided on jet c2s, but ill tell you, they was gorgeous to ride. Without my powermeter i couldnt tell if they were actually quicker than my training wheels, but i sure as hell know they felt quicker.f what I say is complete nonsense then please explain to me why my HED 3(billed as
the fastest spoked wheel on earth - or something like that) and my aero 20 spoke front
wheel(both tubulars by the way) didn't register, at the very least, a "stunning" increase in
speed over my set of hand built clinchers
The only reason they wouldnt be quicker is if they were fitted incorrectly (brakes rubbing etc) the wheels arent magic, they dont add 5mph to your speed - you do.
For the same power output, you will be quicker on the H3 + aero wheel than the training wheels. If you are doing the same speed on both wheelsets, then you are putting more power out (more effort) on your training wheels than the aero set.
If you think its hype - i have to ask, why do you own them???0 -
Parsnip49 wrote:
Im sorry, but that is complete nonsense. a pair of Zipp 404s will be faster than a set of 32 spoke handbuilts in 99.999% of cases .
That's no great comfort if you're sitting on the finishing straight nursing your road rash and surrounded by the remains of your Zipp wheels. Have you seen how much those rims cost?
Well worthwhile for TT and triathlon, but not for this application, IMHO.0 -
if what I say is complete nonsense then please explain to me why my HED 3(billed as
the fastest spoked wheel on earth - or something like that) and my aero 20 spoke front
wheel(both tubulars by the way) didn't register, at the very least, a "stunning" increase in
speed over my set of hand built clinchers
The only reason they wouldnt be quicker is if they were fitted incorrectly (brakes rubbing etc) the wheels arent magic, they dont add 5mph to your speed - you do.
Answer - If they don't add 5 MPH - I do - what's the point? So you're saying it's all me and not the wheel? If they aren't "magic" then what am I paying for?
If you think its hype - i have to ask, why do you own them???[/quote]
Answer - Why own them? Got a really good buy and I like the idea that they never need truing. You may believe the hype if you like, I choose not to.
Dennis Noward0
