Why stay clean with no reason

dave_1

to have confidence in the system?

the testers miss 8 out of 10 positive samples...in 2 weeks so who is going to trust anyone and resist the temptation to dope...

Kléber

Even catching 20% is a massive improvement on 1%.

It means there is a 50% of chance of catching a medallist, so you risk ending your career.

Jez mon

Because you believe in doing the right thing

dave_1

Jez mon wrote:

Because you believe in doing the right thing

that is too much to ask with a 5 to 7 year window to make money esp given your future non cycling career life potentiality has been sacraficed for professional cycling

Jez mon

OK then, how about making doping make less sense economically. If a rider is caught doping make them pay a HUGE fine, which would basically financially cripple them!

OK American riders already do this, but they pay their fine to lawyers, instead the fine should go towards funding more WADA testing.

Besides, once the blood passport etc gets going we will be able to do more target testing, and on average in 5 tests, we will get a result, which isn't too bad.

cougie

Hasnt Peter Keen said something about doping not producing the benefits you imagine, because the athlete is worried and tense all the time about getting caught ?

Reading that american training and drugs forum the other day - its clear theres a lot of people still willing to dope over there, and see no shame in it at all. How do you cope with that in sport ?

skavanagh.bikeradar

I've said it before and I'll say it again, pro sport is slowly losing sight of the reason it was ever invented and became popular. It is now so money orientated that corruption is an everyday thing. Eventually people will get fed up of it and so will sponsors which will affect TV.........Cycling is seeing a bit of this, other sports may be more susceptible to problems on a bigger scale. Which is why, presumably, a lot of sports do no doping controls or so few as to be a token gesture in order to maintain the money-go-round status quo.

ricadus

Did they miss them or were the results suspicious not clear cut enough, with the labs fearful of being challenged. They surely want to avoid another Landis courtroom epic.

andyrac

skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, pro sport is slowly losing sight of the reason it was ever invented and became popular. It is now so money orientated that corruption is an everyday thing. Eventually people will get fed up of it and so will sponsors which will affect TV.........Cycling is seeing a bit of this, other sports may be more susceptible to problems on a bigger scale. Which is why, presumably, a lot of sports do no doping controls or so few as to be a token gesture in order to maintain the money-go-round status quo.

I'd agree with this. I can't believe that other sports appear so 'clean'. I just don't accept it. Just taking the UK, so none of the Footballers, Rugby players, cricketers, etc are taking anything? That just seems unbelievable. Or is it another 'cover up' like Operacion Puerto - were the big powerful sports won't accept anything to undermine their sport?

Bernie S

"I've said it before and I'll say it again, pro sport is slowly losing sight of the reason it was ever invented and became popular. It is now so money orientated that corruption is an everyday thing. "

Which is why taking Sky money by British Cycling is a retrograde step

ms_tree

You've forgotten golf. There have been several articles last year and this about doping in golf. Didn't Gary Player say as much as well?

andrewgturnbull

Bernie S wrote:

"I've said it before and I'll say it again, pro sport is slowly losing sight of the reason it was ever invented and became popular. It is now so money orientated that corruption is an everyday thing. "

Which is why taking Sky money by British Cycling is a retrograde step

Bzzzz!

[rant]

Pro sport is becoming money oriented? What? This isn't chariots-of-fire, or ancient olympians with olive wreaths!

Pro sport has always been about three things. Money, money and money. Corinthian ideals come quite far down that list.

The Tour de France was concocted as a wheeze to sell more newspapers, not as some sort of romantic sporting ideal. All that stuff came later and was invented by the marketing men.

Corruption is becoming an everyday thing? Have you not read you history? The winners of the second tour were disqualified for taking the f*****g train! That was 104 years ago. The only difference now is that the cheating is more subtle.

British Cycling should take it's money from wherever it can get it. The last twelve years our Olympians have been supported by the profits from a gambling monopoly - how does that sit with your morals?

[/rant]

Cheers, Andy

dave_1

The potential doper is thinking 200 riders or more in the race, good Drs behind them, only a few get target tested out of hundreds...they miss 8 out of 10 positive samples in 10 days with target testing in full cry...how many others are doing that...if it is that easy and I am not being target tested then the risk of becoming a ricco is small. If not being target tested the risk is small and worth it

the above are the odds one calculates , so it seems still safe to dope...am sure many will risk it

Jez mon

Hmmm, but what is the percentage of dopers who get put on the target list, if 100% of the blood dopers return suspicious values plus a few innocent bystanders, and all those poeple get target tested, then it's probable that you'll get caught.

Another thing to do would be to financially force the teams to run their own independent, clean cycling program. To make sure that all riders face lots of tests, then a 20% success rate wouldn't be so bad

Bernie S

Andy,

Football and Cricket are being corrupted by money you obviously seem happy to see our sport becoming the same. To say British Cycling should take money wherever they can get it
I suppose you would be quite satisfied with the British team having Marlboro on their jerseys

The Dr

The solution is simple......ban the cheats for life.....period. Huge fines wont and don't work.

andrewgturnbull

Bernie S wrote:

Andy,

Football and Cricket are being corrupted by money you obviously seem happy to see our sport becoming the same. To say British Cycling should take money wherever they can get it
I suppose you would be quite satisfied with the British team having Marlboro on their jerseys

Hi Bernie.

The point I made is that professional cycilng was corrupt from the start - it's not becoming so, it always was that way. Football and cricket are just catching up...

Your point about tobacco advertising is a fair one, and that I'm glad that there is legislation in place to prevent that.

Can I ask you, why are you against BC taking money from a TV company, but happy with a gambling one?

Cheers, Andy

iainf72

The Dr wrote:

The solution is simple......ban the cheats for life.....period. Huge fines wont and don't work.

At the risk of being a stuck record (and that's so unlike me), can you explain how that would have any effect what so ever?

iainf72

Jez mon wrote:

Hmmm, but what is the percentage of dopers who get put on the target list, if 100% of the blood dopers return suspicious values plus a few innocent bystanders, and all those poeple get target tested, then it's probable that you'll get caught.

Another thing to do would be to financially force the teams to run their own independent, clean cycling program. To make sure that all riders face lots of tests, then a 20% success rate wouldn't be so bad

Well here's a question : During the TdF Frank Schleck and Cancellera were called for "random" tests a lot (before Frank took yellow) So if the AFLD were targetting that means they must've had strange blood values.

2 people on 1 team have funny values and that team also have an indy program. How does that work?

Kléber

Riders know doping is a risk. But they think they can get away with it. If they think they'll never be caught, because they're on some wonder drug that's undetectable, whether it's new EPO or the "Balco" hormones, the consequences of being caught just won't enter their mind.

Those calling for life bans just want to punish dopers - that's fine - but it's not a deterrent.

richard wants a baum

Kléber

Riders know doping is a risk. But they think they can get away with it. If they think they'll never be caught, because they're on some wonder drug that's undetectable, whether it's new EPO or the "Balco" hormones, the consequences of being caught just won't enter their mind.

Those calling for life bans just want to punish dopers - that's fine - but it's not a deterrent.

Its been said before that these guys have a limited earning window in the careers If you ban them for life it will make the young guys think twice about risking the rest of their careers. The old blokes that are just trying to hang on for one more season will always take the risk no matter what you do. I might be a little naive but i think that its getting better we had some really crap years after armstrong. Landis Rasmussen Basso Ulrich etc. but it think the fact that these big names are getting caught is making the peleton think twice also Teams like Garmin, Columbia and co. do sincerly look like there going after the cheaters. I think some times we focus on all the bad crap that happens in this sport and forget the good.

iainf72

richard wants a baum wrote:

Its been said before that these guys have a limited earning window in the careers If you ban them for life it will make the young guys think twice about risking the rest of their careers.

This is making an assumption that they can compete without doping. What if they can't? You can't achieve the same results with hard work and a positive mental attitude.

Good detection is the only deterant.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

richard wants a baum wrote:

Its been said before that these guys have a limited earning window in the careers If you ban them for life it will make the young guys think twice about risking the rest of their careers.

This is making an assumption that they can compete without doping. What if they can't? You can't achieve the same results with hard work and a positive mental attitude.

Good detection is the only deterant.

as a one off with no big wins prior, it would be very tempting to use the odds in your favour-tiny chance of being caught if not a target, given how hard it was to catch Ricco even with 10 tests in 13 days, and take a big win that will see your salary for the following year increase x5...not race for a month after.

Doping is easy and safe it seems

Bernie S

Hi Andy,

No the thing I feel maybe wrongly about Sky is I have friends who are dyed in the wool Football/Cricket fans and they feel Sky with the money they have put into those sports have made it difficult for the ordinary joe to afford to attend. Also do they, Sky, see the popularity of cycling Cavendish etc and with Brailsfords idea of a TDF team ( we need a competent climber first)as a way to get coverage of TDF for their channels exclusively. There were demonstations in Italy when Mediaset got the Giro away from RAI a few years ago as people in the South could not afford the Belesconi subscription package.

Im not against commercial sponsorship of course ,where would the proffessional peleton be without it, but you need to look at why they are offering you and whats in it for them. Remember Le Groupement .

andrewgturnbull

Bernie S wrote:

Hi Andy,

No the thing I feel maybe wrongly about Sky is I have friends who are dyed in the wool Football/Cricket fans and they feel Sky with the money they have put into those sports have made it difficult for the ordinary joe to afford to attend. Also do they, Sky, see the popularity of cycling Cavendish etc and with Brailsfords idea of a TDF team ( we need a competent climber first)as a way to get coverage of TDF for their channels exclusively. There were demonstations in Italy when Mediaset got the Giro away from RAI a few years ago as people in the South could not afford the Belesconi subscription package.

Im not against commercial sponsorship of course ,where would the proffessional peloton be without it, but you need to look at why they are offering you and whats in it for them. Remember Le Groupement .

Hi there.

The moral of Le Groupement, as well as ANC-Halfords, Linda McCartney, Mercury, Team Coast etc, etc might be that we need sponsorship from bigger companies rather than smaller ones? I dunno.

I don't know anything about football... Maybe you could explain to me how a company putting money into a sport makes it more expensive for the supporters?

Cheers, Andy

DavidBelcher

andrewgturnbull wrote:

I don't know anything about football... Maybe you could explain to me how a company putting money into a sport makes it more expensive for the supporters?

Cheers, Andy

I can't quite see it either, given the extra TV and advertising revenue. The only possible answer is that clubs get a higher public profile due to the extra media exposure, thereby attracting big-name players who demand wages to suit. If the TV/ad revenues don't carry on rising as the wage bill increases, and/or if a lack of success fails to bring in prize money, TV bonuses or extra sponsors' dough, there'll be some sort of shortfall and the replica kit purchasers and spectators inevitably have to pick up the tab, especially in the the absence of an Abramovich-type figure to provide the money from their own funds.

David

Jez mon

iainf72 wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

Hmmm, but what is the percentage of dopers who get put on the target list, if 100% of the blood dopers return suspicious values plus a few innocent bystanders, and all those poeple get target tested, then it's probable that you'll get caught.

Another thing to do would be to financially force the teams to run their own independent, clean cycling program. To make sure that all riders face lots of tests, then a 20% success rate wouldn't be so bad

Well here's a question : During the TdF Frank Schleck and Cancellera were called for "random" tests a lot (before Frank took yellow) So if the AFLD were targetting that means they must've had strange blood values.

2 people on 1 team have funny values and that team also have an indy program. How does that work?

Frank Schleck and Fabian where two of the innocent bystanders, or they are guilty. Either way they've probably been tested over 5 times, and by the OPs 20% rule, if they were positive, they would have tested so.

Funny values do not necessarily indicate foul play. Surely a team with an indy program would allow funny values to get through, so long as they were natural funny values (all these funny values are starting to get silly).

dave_1

how often can a lowly domestique at the TDF expect to be tested during a grand tour? Just trying to calculate odds. Must be 2 or 3 times at most-a dopers paradise really if someone can hold them off 8 out of 10 days in a target testing?

We did not see a cleaner TDF I think after all......we saw clever athletes I think...smart guys. I believed otherwise but young Ricco has shown the charade testing still is

guv001

Sky aren't going to pump money into BC for nothing but its worth it if it will develop cycling over a number of years After all it is commercial sponsorship they want not a money remover.

andyrac

guv001 wrote:

Sky aren't going to pump money into BC for nothing but its worth it if it will develop cycling over a number of years After all it is commercial sponsorship they want not a money remover.

Is there anything to stop the National Lottery becoming involved? Apart from the PC Brigade - who only give to Gay/Foreign/Mentally disturbed persons,etc

Isn't the Lotto part of Silence-Lotto the Belgian lottery? Remember ONCE - the Spanish lottery for the blind. Francaise Des Jeux is the French lottery.
It could be SKY-Lotto.....

Uncle Chop Chop

iainf72 wrote:

The Dr wrote:

The solution is simple......ban the cheats for life.....period. Huge fines wont and don't work.

At the risk of being a stuck record (and that's so unlike me), can you explain how that would have any effect what so ever?

Ian clearly the current system and sanctions are havingsome effect, but I don't think you can argue that it is the solution when guys like Ricco, Basso etc etc are still cheating. Why not ban them for life? Some of the effects of the drugs their taking stay with them for life, soooooo why not ban them for life.