Overrall ranking of riders

victorponf

Very intersting:

http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders ... verall.txt

andyp

Kelly only 15th - how exactly? Especially when someone like Ullrich is ahead of him?

iainf72

It's the scoring - You get 1800 for first in the Tour, 600 for second.

Winning Tour of Flanders gets you 240 points.

So many TdF wins = top of the pile.

victorponf

Yes TdF is so overestimated, in my opinion Amstrong has no better historial than Anquetil for example

andyp

If you look at Merckx, Hinault and Coppi they all had a spread of victories, i.e. grand tours, week long stage races, one day classics and world championships. Anquetil was similar but with less wins. They all won at least two of the three grand tours. Armstrong won 7 Tours, a world championship and just one semi-classic.

Kelly won a grand tour (the Vuelta in 88), Paris-Nice seven times in a row and more one day monuments than you can shake a stick at.

redddraggon

Those rankings look rubbish to me - you seem to have to win to get points - Devolder only 240pts but hasn't he placed top ten in the Vuelta (and probably loads of other races)?

Trev36

Here is their point scoring method.
http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/gen_info.asp

weights heavily in favour of the TDF
look at the win to second place difference 1800 to 600

The Giro is only worth 720 & the Vuelta even less at 600 for a win

The big Classics Paris-Roubaix - 360 and others 240 for a win
Other Classics are only 160 for a win.


You'd have to win 11-12 classics to equal 1 TDF.
I guess classics are an easy win :shock:
or 3 Vuelta's to 1 TDF.

I think they need to balance the point scoring system out

andyp

redddraggon wrote:

Those rankings look rubbish to me - you seem to have to win to get points - Devolder only 240pts but hasn't he placed top ten in the Vuelta (and probably loads of other races)?

Devolder? A great rider? :roll:

He's placed 11th in the Vuelta as his best grand tour placing. Tom Danielson has done better than that!

dave_1

I tend to agree...Ullrich cannot be in front of Kelly and really neither can Lance Armstrong...full season of racing is what should be scored..not a speciality...let us turn the tables and massively weight the points to races lance and Jan could not win like spring classics...kelly comes out top...this table is biased by the person who made it...but all the same Ullrich should be high up in any scoring..

Salsiccia

The table doesn't take into account a lot of things, but two things that impact majorly (© Sean Kelly) are the quality of the opposition and the manner of victory. Both of those things are very subjective. It is why Fausto Coppi is considered second in most opinions, not 5th; and why Sean Kelly in most opinions is rated better than 15th.

disgruntledgoat

It also doens't take into account the changing fortunes of various races and the accompanying quality of the field.

A worlds win before it was moved to September would be worth a lot more than one today, with all the worlds best riders in form and wanting to win.

The Vuelta used to, also, be earlier in the year and mch more prestigious, worth more in its best days than the Giro.

The Giro is now, aruguably, run on a tougher course with harder racing and more contenders than the tour.

Grand Tours are shorter these days, a fact which lengthens the career of an Armstrong over a Merckx or a Hinault.

Plus, Armstrong didn't lose 6 years of his career to WW2, unlike Coppi.

takethehighroad

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Plus, Armstrong didn't lose 6 years of his career to WW2, unlike Coppi.

To be fair to Armstrong (for the first time in my life!) he did have his own problems that kept him out.

We all have our own idea of who is in numbers one to ten and this is just trying to classify it. There were always going to be differences in opinion in the same way that there are differences of opinion in who should be first second third etc.

For the record, mine top few are :
Merckx
Coppi
Hinault
Kelly
Zabel

and Armstrong comes some way down. I'm not saying what Armstrong did isn't a good thing, as it was a fantastic achievement. However, people like Merckx and Kelly raced all year, winning different races all year, and Coppi raced in a different era where he was head and shoulders above his adversaries. Even Indurain comes above Armstrong in my estimation, as he won more than just the Tour. Armstrong (only) won a World Championship and a semi classic outside of the Tour.

disgruntledgoat

To be fair to Armstrong he did lose 3 years at teh highest level with cancer. Not to belittle it, but Coppi was already the best rider in the world and lost six years, 3 of them in a PoW camp, which aren't noted for their restorative powers and solid healthcare.

calvjones

When the Coppi WW2 issue was pointed out to Merckx, didn't he say 'maybe he was better than me then'. Tough to argue with the man!

knedlicky

I have a copy of a similar list I found on another website last year and in that one, Sean Kelly is listed 4th and Armstrong relegated to 8th. It therefore better matches some of the sentiments expressed in this thread.
This appears to be because it gives more weight to one-day races than the above link does. For example, in the one I have, Roger De Vlaeminck makes it to 12th and he was almost exclusively a Classics rider.

Other difference include
- Bartali is ahead of Coppi, Moser is rated much higher (7th), Bobet much lower (15th).
- Lemond, Van Impe, Ullrich, Fignon, Bahamontes and Janssen don’t make it into the Top 20 at all. All are rated in the range 25th to 40th, except for Bahamontes, who is only at 65th!

In place of these, as well as De Vlaeminck, are the names Girardengo (a name I didn’t know before – he’s look-uppable on Wikipedia), Freddy Maertens, Pou-Pou, Guiseppe Saronni and Laurent Jalabert, in that order in places 16th to 20th.

Of these doubtfuls from both camps, I'd include Fignon, De Vlaeminck and Jalabert.

victorponf

knedlicky wrote:

I have a copy of a similar list I found on another website last year and in that one, Sean Kelly is listed 4th and Armstrong relegated to 8th. It therefore better matches some of the sentiments expressed in this thread.
This appears to be because it gives more weight to one-day races than the above link does. For example, in the one I have, Roger De Vlaeminck makes it to 12th and he was almost exclusively a Classics rider.

Other difference include
- Bartali is ahead of Coppi, Moser is rated much higher (7th), Bobet much lower (15th).
- Lemond, Van Impe, Ullrich, Fignon, Bahamontes and Janssen don’t make it into the Top 20 at all. All are rated in the range 25th to 40th, except for Bahamontes, who is only at 65th!

In place of these, as well as De Vlaeminck, are the names Girardengo (a name I didn’t know before – he’s look-uppable on Wikipedia), Freddy Maertens, Pou-Pou, Guiseppe Saronni and Laurent Jalabert, in that order in places 16th to 20th.

Of these doubtfuls from both camps, I'd include Fignon, De Vlaeminck and Jalabert.

Another list:

http://www.cyclingranking.com/

Name Birthday Country Points
1 Eddy Merckx 17-Jun-1945 Belgium 18964
2 Gino Bartali 18-Jul-1914 Italy 14605
3 Sean Kelly 24-May-1956 Ireland 14365
4 Francesco Moser 19-Jun-1951 Italy 13165
5 Joop Zoetemelk 3-Dec-1946 The Netherlands 12710
6 Raymond Poulidor 15-Apr-1936 France 12209
7 Felice Gimondi 29-Sep-1942 Italy 11794
8 Jacques Anquetil 8-Jan-1934 France 11773
9 Roger de Vlaeminck 24-Aug-1947 Belgium 11396
10 Rik van Looy 20-Dec-1933 Belgium 11253
11 Bernard Hinault 14-Nov-1954 France 11013
12 Laurent Jalabert 30-Nov-1968 France 11000
13 Erik Zabel * 7-Jul-1970 Germany 10712
14 Fausto Coppi 15-Sep-1919 Italy 10575
15 Louison Bobet 12-Mar-1925 France 9679
16 Franco Bitossi 1-Sep-1940 Italy 9636
17 Herman van Springel 14-Aug-1943 Belgium 9243
18 Davide Rebellin * 9-Aug-1971 Italy 9035
19 Giuseppe Saronni 22-Sep-1957 Italy 8823
20 Miguel Indurain 16-Jul-1964 Spain 8684


Moser in fourth position , Amstrong 28th, Hinault 11th and Coppi 14...

dave_1

victorponf wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

I have a copy of a similar list I found on another website last year and in that one, Sean Kelly is listed 4th and Armstrong relegated to 8th. It therefore better matches some of the sentiments expressed in this thread.
This appears to be because it gives more weight to one-day races than the above link does. For example, in the one I have, Roger De Vlaeminck makes it to 12th and he was almost exclusively a Classics rider.

Other difference include
- Bartali is ahead of Coppi, Moser is rated much higher (7th), Bobet much lower (15th).
- Lemond, Van Impe, Ullrich, Fignon, Bahamontes and Janssen don’t make it into the Top 20 at all. All are rated in the range 25th to 40th, except for Bahamontes, who is only at 65th!

In place of these, as well as De Vlaeminck, are the names Girardengo (a name I didn’t know before – he’s look-uppable on Wikipedia), Freddy Maertens, Pou-Pou, Guiseppe Saronni and Laurent Jalabert, in that order in places 16th to 20th.

Of these doubtfuls from both camps, I'd include Fignon, De Vlaeminck and Jalabert.

Another list:

http://www.cyclingranking.com/

Name Birthday Country Points
1 Eddy Merckx 17-Jun-1945 Belgium 18964
2 Gino Bartali 18-Jul-1914 Italy 14605
3 Sean Kelly 24-May-1956 Ireland 14365
4 Francesco Moser 19-Jun-1951 Italy 13165
5 Joop Zoetemelk 3-Dec-1946 The Netherlands 12710
6 Raymond Poulidor 15-Apr-1936 France 12209
7 Felice Gimondi 29-Sep-1942 Italy 11794
8 Jacques Anquetil 8-Jan-1934 France 11773
9 Roger de Vlaeminck 24-Aug-1947 Belgium 11396
10 Rik van Looy 20-Dec-1933 Belgium 11253
11 Bernard Hinault 14-Nov-1954 France 11013
12 Laurent Jalabert 30-Nov-1968 France 11000
13 Erik Zabel * 7-Jul-1970 Germany 10712
14 Fausto Coppi 15-Sep-1919 Italy 10575
15 Louison Bobet 12-Mar-1925 France 9679
16 Franco Bitossi 1-Sep-1940 Italy 9636
17 Herman van Springel 14-Aug-1943 Belgium 9243
18 Davide Rebellin * 9-Aug-1971 Italy 9035
19 Giuseppe Saronni 22-Sep-1957 Italy 8823
20 Miguel Indurain 16-Jul-1964 Spain 8684


Moser in fourth position , Amstrong 28th, Hinault 11th and Coppi 14...

it is too biased against the person who could do both classics and GTs...Fignon'double Milan San Remo winner and 3 time GT winner...no way should Moser be ahead of him

redddraggon

andyp wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Those rankings look rubbish to me - you seem to have to win to get points - Devolder only 240pts but hasn't he placed top ten in the Vuelta (and probably loads of other races)?

Devolder? A great rider? :roll:

He's placed 11th in the Vuelta as his best grand tour placing. Tom Danielson has done better than that!

It was a random example guessing that he should have had placings in other events.

victorponf

This is very good:

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/start.asp