cat 4 racing A word in your shellike

peanut

A pal of mine has been attempting to get sufficient points all season to get a cat 3 license without success. He has been training really hard and competed in several local races .
It seems that all the races have several Cat 2 and cat3 racers competing so the chances of my pal getting a top 10 position to get the required points iin any of these races is virtually nil.

It would seem to me to be far fairer for up and coming racers that in order to get the necessary points they should be marked against other Cat 4 riders only . In the same way as you can enter a race car in say Le Mans and despite placing say 10th can still win your class at say 2000 cc or whatever.You are then being matched against someone your equal.

Can someone explain to me how prospective road racers move up through the various catagories and what the rules are and any tips would be appreciated thansk

Ramanujan

Simple.
Choose races that are cat 4 only.
In the SE there are lots of them . Well, not lots, but quite a few.
Maybe not so many in Somerset?

peanut

Ramanujan wrote:

Simple.
Choose races that are cat 4 only.
In the SE there are lots of them . Well, not lots, but quite a few.
Maybe not so many in Somerset?

apparently none within reasonable travelling distance.

don't know anything about the racing scene. Who is the governing body and where could I find a link to a website for race meetings,rules etc

inseine

Why does he care if he's 3rd or 4th cat? He'll still be riding the same events if what you say is right and if he can't get up there as a 4th he is going to do any better as a 3rd. Most riders never progress beyond 4th cat so it's not unusual but he really wants to move up he'll just have to ride better. My only tip is learn to sprint; it's where you'll pick up the vast majority of the points and he'll just get better the more events he rides.
Good luck.

Bronzie

peanut wrote:

don't know anything about the racing scene. Who is the governing body and where could I find a link to a website for race meetings,rules etc

British Cycling - use the filters on the events calendar to find 4th cat events although you will need to look at each listing to see what other cats its open to. I agree that events in the South West do seem thin on the ground.

The BC Handbook (sent out quarterly to BC members who pay the extra £12 for it) lists all events and what categories they are for.

Most events open to 4ths are either 2/3/4 or 3/4 - he'll have more chance obviously in the 3/4s as some 2nd cats are really 1st cats who avoid moving up to the next level as it generally means more travelling and getting your legs ripped to shreds by Elites. Be aware that some 3rd cats are also effectively 2nd cats for the same reason! :?

peanut wrote:

Can someone explain to me how prospective road racers move up through the various catagories and what the rules are and any tips would be appreciated thansk

To move from 4th to 3rd you need 10 points - you get 10 points for a win in a 3/4s race so a few top 5 placings would secure it. Certainly not easy to pick up points unless you can sprint though. Even at entry level, you have to be pretty fit to get up there.

I'd tell your mate to not worry too much about points and just enjoy the racing - the placings will come in time.

peanut

thank you Bronzie thats an extremly helpful reply.
I think most of the problem is my pal can climb like Pantani but has no build for flat racing so generally gets spat out the back at some point.
All the races down this way seem to be pretty flat which obviously doesn't play to his advantage .Odd really cos there are plenty of hills down here .Unless he can find some 4th cat races or some hilly courses he is unlikely to get the points he needs to progress which is a shame given the intensive training he has done the past two years.

:roll:

Ste_S

Look for Regional C/C+ races too. They're usually open to E/1/2/3/4, but are run handicapped.
4th cats off first, Elites/1st cats off last

peanut

Ste_S wrote:

Look for Regional C/C+ races too. They're usually open to E/1/2/3/4, but are run handicapped.
4th cats off first, Elites/1st cats off last

thanks thats useful to know ta

robjhp

Tell your freind i can sympathize with him,i been trying for last 3 months to get 1 more point to get my 3rd Cat.The C+ events are best place to grab easy Points,till they move you into the scratch group Doh.Also as been said already learn to sprint (i cant so always finish about 15th).Good luck

peanut

robjhp wrote:

.Also as been said already learn to sprint (i cant so always finish about 15th).Good luck

same with my friend he weighs all of 7 stone nothing . He'll never have any chance of sprinting so like you he seems destined to stay around 15th or so
Personally i think he should stick with hill climbs and TT where he would stand a better chance of doing well I should have thought.

Me well I would have made a good sprinter. Too heavy really but very powerful and very fast. I would have loved to try the flying kilometer in my younger days. :roll:

nwallace

peanut wrote:

In the same way as you can enter a race car in say Le Mans and despite placing say 10th can still win your class at say 2000 cc or whatever.You are then being matched against someone your equal.

Classing has everything to do with the car and nothing to do with the driver. I could do an ARDS test, get a National B licence, turn up at Knockhill and find John Cleland and Dario or Marino Franchitti in the same class as me.

Same as described with Cat 4 racing really.

peanut

nwallace wrote:

peanut wrote:

In the same way as you can enter a race car in say Le Mans and despite placing say 10th can still win your class at say 2000 cc or whatever.You are then being matched against someone your equal.

Classing has everything to do with the car and nothing to do with the driver. I could do an ARDS test, get a National B licence, turn up at Knockhill and find John Cleland and Dario or Marino Franchitti in the same class as me.

Same as described with Cat 4 racing really.

yes it was not a particularly good analogy was it but I think most readers managed to get the gist of what I meant without too much trouble

Tom Butcher

If all races had accurate chip timing then it might be possible to have different category points awarded in a single race - though you'd get the problem of nobody knowing where they stood in relation to everyone else in their category so the sprint might be a bit hairy. There are loads of 4th cats and really there should be a few more 4ths only races for them - but I think organisers like to play safe and a 3/4 has a bigger potential field.

peanut

Tom Butcher wrote:

If all races had accurate chip timing then it might be possible to have different category points awarded in a single race - though you'd get the problem of nobody knowing where they stood in relation to everyone else in their category so the sprint might be a bit hairy. There are loads of 4th cats and really there should be a few more 4ths only races for them - but I think organisers like to play safe and a 3/4 has a bigger potential field.

yes I think that you have hit the nail on the head there. if events are under-subcribed they will have to cancel .My friend will just have to be prepared to travel further and select hilly events

Bronzie

How about this one in South Wales - sounds right up his street - Gateway to The Beacons on this Sunday run as an E/1/2/3 & 3/4. Too late to enter in advance but may be entries available on the line - contact the organiser.

http://www.swanseawheelers.co.uk/gateway.php

peanut

thanks I'll print it off for him. Its a long drive but an interesting course. Bit lumpy as we say down this way !

inseine

I don't think that being 7 stone is a barrier to doing well in a 3rd cat event, and if it is why the big rush to get a 3rd cat licence? That's the bit i don't understand. Tell him to enjoy it while he can.

acorn_user

They don't score the categories separately for upgrades? Why ever not? Round here there are womens races with 1/2/3 scored separately from 4 and 40+ masters. You have three races in the same field when it comes to points and $$.

disgruntledgoat

acorn_user wrote:

They don't score the categories separately for upgrades? Why ever not? Round here there are womens races with 1/2/3 scored separately from 4 and 40+ masters. You have three races in the same field when it comes to points and $$.

Because British Cycling appears to hate it's members.

Tom Butcher

I think the exception is sometimes women do score points seperately from the main race - but they don't split categories for points - so a 4th cat in a 2/3/4 has to beat a load of 2nd cats to place. I think the main problem is judging - which can be 3 volunteers stood on the finish line trying to split a bunch sprint without the aid of a video. That's the worst case but it's not unusual and as you can imagine the results aren't always accurate for top 10 - they don't even attempt to sort the whole field. The technology is there to use chips and it is starting to be used in some areas but I'm not sure how they stand using finishing sensors on open roads.

le_patron

Question I have (sorry for slight hijack) is why cat 2's can be in a 3/4's race ? Is it because an entry is honoured even if you move up to the next category between entering and racing ?

If so, it can mean easy points for the Cat 2's (or whatever) and you could enter a load of races early in the season to take advantage.

Bronzie

No - the majority of races promoted are either 3/4s, 2/3/4s or E/1/2. So depending on what's on the calendar, it's quite possible that the only local race available is a 2/3/4. 2nd cats can't normally ride 3/4s - if you move up a category after entering, you are supposed to notify the organiser accordingly.

Many 3rd and 4th cats actually PREFER to race 2/3/4s as the racing tends to be "better" - 3/4s can be quite negative as generally on a flat course it always comes down to a bunch sprint, often involving a crash (because few 3rd cats are strong enough to form and maintain a break). 2/3/4s often feature a break and a strong 3rd or 4th cat can hope to get away with others and get a placing that way.

peanut

Bronzie wrote:

How about this one in South Wales - sounds right up his street - Gateway to The Beacons on this Sunday run as an E/1/2/3 & 3/4. Too late to enter in advance but may be entries available on the line - contact the organiser.

http://www.swanseawheelers.co.uk/gateway.php

thanks Bronzie looks like this might be a winner. Its not much further than other races he has been competing in. it gave him quite a lift tonight as I think he had been getting a bit down over it .

Ste_S

disgruntledgoat wrote:

acorn_user wrote:

They don't score the categories separately for upgrades? Why ever not? Round here there are womens races with 1/2/3 scored separately from 4 and 40+ masters. You have three races in the same field when it comes to points and $$.

Because British Cycling appears to hate it's members.

Placing is normally done by 2-3 volunteers on the line agreeing a list of the top ten finishers.

If you where to place each category separately in a multi-cat race, you'd probably need timing chips for each rider, all adding to the cost of promoting and entering a race. You'd also need a method of identifying which cat a rider is, just so riders can know who they're actually racing against.

Tom Butcher

Just in reply to a post above - I know there is a lot of talk about some 4ths preferring to enter 2/3/4s for better racing but if you look at the start sheets you'll see it actually puts 90% of them off entering. In the results it's rare for a 4th cat to feature in the points of a 2/3/4.

Bronzie

peanut wrote:

it gave him quite a lift tonight as I think he had been getting a bit down over it .

Let us know how he gets on then - bear in mind that everyone else whose entered it also probably considers themselves a decent climber - it's the sort of profile I'd run a mile from :oops: - even the name is enough to put me off!

peanut

Bronzie wrote:

peanut wrote:

it gave him quite a lift tonight as I think he had been getting a bit down over it .

Let us know how he gets on then - bear in mind that everyone else whose entered it also probably considers themselves a decent climber - it's the sort of profile I'd run a mile from :oops: - even the name is enough to put me off!

will do. I think the experience will just be a good one for him because although he mostly holds his own on the flat except for the sprints and breaks he'll certainly be on a par with the climbing .Points or not it would be a more positive experience I should think.

acorn_user

We rarely have more than three USAC officials. It doesn't take that much to sort out the race numbers by category at the end, although I'm glad I don't have to do it. Marshalling is easier.

andrewgturnbull

acorn_user wrote:

We rarely have more than three USAC officials. It doesn't take that much to sort out the race numbers by category at the end, although I'm glad I don't have to do it. Marshalling is easier.

HI there.

Much easier with chip timing... However in my experience most racing cycists aren't willing to pay the extra entry fee that is required for this - a minimum £5 extra per head for reasonable field sizes.

Chip timing is much cheaper for runners where field sizes are measured in the thousands... and triathletes are used to paying £30 to enter even small local races. Bike racers seem to want everything for £8.

Cheers, Andy

genki

Bronzie wrote:

No - the majority of races promoted are either 3/4s, 2/3/4s or E/1/2. So depending on what's on the calendar, it's quite possible that the only local race available is a 2/3/4. 2nd cats can't normally ride 3/4s - if you move up a category after entering, you are supposed to notify the organiser accordingly.

Many 3rd and 4th cats actually PREFER to race 2/3/4s as the racing tends to be "better" - 3/4s can be quite negative as generally on a flat course it always comes down to a bunch sprint, often involving a crash (because few 3rd cats are strong enough to form and maintain a break). 2/3/4s often feature a break and a strong 3rd or 4th cat can hope to get away with others and get a placing that way.

Last year I started racing and got did a few 4th cat races and a few E/1/2/3/4 handicaps. I got no points in any but got knocked off a couple of times in the 4th cat races in last-lap pile-ups. This year i went for a different strategy and have just ridden the E/1/2/3/4 handicaps. If you get a good day, and get a few other 4th cats prepared to work hard from the first lap, there's a reasonable chance of the small group not getting caught and you'll all end up in the points with a much lower chance of getting knocked off too. For the courses I've ridden anything over 24mph might do be suffiicient if you're given a 6 min head start on the fastest group. If you do get caught, chances are you're not going to outsprint the big boys so just treat it as a training ride and learning experience. If you can't get the other 4th cats to work hard enough then just go for a solo break. In the three handicaps I've ridden this year I've had a 2nd and a 1st place, so it was good enough to get me out of the 4ths. Now if someone could explain how to get promotion to the 2nds...

oldwelshman

Tell your mate to enter some grass track meetings where a few people turn up for a few events and get loads of points!!
He could also get three other riders and enter the regional track pursuit chapmps and as long as they finish, will probably come third and get 7 points each.
You can get to second cat in one grass track meeting
But as others pointed out it makes no difference if you get easy points as your in the same races so its best he trains harder