Debate question.

dennisn
dennisn Posts: 10,601
edited July 2008 in Workshop
Do the seemingly wider and wider downtubes on bicycles(i.e. Cervelo, Litespeed, etc.)
actually reflect an improvement in bicycle frame design or is it to pacify the ad-men
in their quest, or demand, to have the frame designers put a larger brand name sticker on the bike, thereby making it more visable to the masses?
Dennis Noward

Comments

  • Smokin Joe
    Smokin Joe Posts: 2,706
    It does help show off the logos, but the real reason is it allows thinner walled tubes to be used.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Smokin Joe wrote:
    It does help show off the logos, but the real reason is it allows thinner walled tubes to be used.

    I agree it does allow thinner walls. Not sure if it's an "improvement". It is if you listen to
    the hype. Anyway, maybe my question should have read something like - Do the ad men and sales force dictate bicycle frame design to the engineers that must build it, forcing
    them to make various changes, each year, in tube shapes and sizes so the ad boys can put bigger and bigger decals on each frame and also to allow them to claim big improvments in ride, stiffness, and every other thing each year?

    Dennis Noward
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    I don't know that Dennis, always starting debates tsk! :lol:
  • W5454
    W5454 Posts: 133
    giant mancp wrote:
    I don't know that Dennis, always starting debates tsk! :lol:

    Is he a mass debater?
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    W5454 wrote:
    giant mancp wrote:
    I don't know that Dennis, always starting debates tsk! :lol:

    Is he a mass debater?

    Yes I am, oh wait, now I get it. :D:D

    dennis noward
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    Lol!!! :lol::lol:
  • FSR_XC
    FSR_XC Posts: 2,258
    I think the tube diameter issue can be debated for months.

    When does a larger diameter / thinner walls still continue to be less weight than narrow diameter tubing?

    Obviously the other advantage we are told is forming the tubes to create stronger / stiffer areas.

    I saw a new Spesh Allez on Saturday. The top tube now bends like the Transission frame. To make it stiffer? - no. Is it lighter? - no. So why?
    Well on a carbon frame it does increase the stiffness and the way the bike 'feels' but on the alloy frame of the Allez? Well it is so it looks like the more expensive frame.

    I wonder how many other bikes have now need for the various frame designs?
    Stumpjumper FSR 09/10 Pro Carbon, Genesis Vapour CX20 ('17)Carbon, Rose Xeon CW3000 '14, Raleigh R50

    http://www.visiontrack.com
  • mr-ed
    mr-ed Posts: 130
    The problem with the argument is Cervelo also make a bike with a small down tube.
    www.shredordead.cc
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    mr-ed wrote:
    The problem with the argument is Cervelo also make a bike with a small down tube.

    Didn't realize that they did(haven't seen one). Not so much an argument as a theory.
    Seems like bikes are becoming billboards of a sort and that led me to think sales and marketing are the force behind how a bicycle looks (curved this and that, different
    shaped tubes, wide downtubes) so that they can constantly claim all sorts of various
    "improvements". The engineers and builders must follow marketing's lead. It's
    function FOLLOWS form instead of the other way around.

    Dennis Noward
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Well, they used to just paint it a different colour and say how much better it was than last year's model.
    Perhaps we got wise to that, so now they have to produce bigger, curvier, more triangle/diamond/etc-shaped tubes in order to tell us how much better it is than last year's model.
    As long as the advertising men can persuade us that we need to buy new bikes rather than stick with the ones we're got, they'll keep on thinking-up ways to do it.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    andy_wrx wrote:
    Well, they used to just paint it a different colour and say how much better it was than last year's model.
    Perhaps we got wise to that, so now they have to produce bigger, curvier, more triangle/diamond/etc-shaped tubes in order to tell us how much better it is than last year's model.
    As long as the advertising men can persuade us that we need to buy new bikes rather than stick with the ones we're got, they'll keep on thinking-up ways to do it.

    Which brings up another question. :roll: :roll: Why did steel bike frame makers keep the
    frames looking the same for so many years(even today)? Was it because it was as far
    as they could take frame design, with the materials available, and that changing tube shapes didn't accomplish anything? Were they the exact opposite of today's manufacturers in that form followed function? :? :?
  • wildmoustache
    wildmoustache Posts: 4,010
    dennisn wrote:
    andy_wrx wrote:
    Well, they used to just paint it a different colour and say how much better it was than last year's model.
    Perhaps we got wise to that, so now they have to produce bigger, curvier, more triangle/diamond/etc-shaped tubes in order to tell us how much better it is than last year's model.
    As long as the advertising men can persuade us that we need to buy new bikes rather than stick with the ones we're got, they'll keep on thinking-up ways to do it.

    Which brings up another question. :roll: :roll: Why did steel bike frame makers keep the
    frames looking the same for so many years(even today)? Was it because it was as far
    as they could take frame design, with the materials available, and that changing tube shapes didn't accomplish anything? Were they the exact opposite of today's manufacturers in that form followed function? :? :?

    gee dennis ... not like to embrace change and new technology so wholeheartedly :wink:

    have a look at the bottom bracket area of the Cervelo SLC-SL if you want massive ... you could hold a sportif event inside one of those things

    i'd say form does follow function in many instances ... big alu downtubes do offer something that steel didn't in stiffness to weight ratio
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    Well Dennis, bike manufacturers are in business and need to encourage us to buy don't they? So of course I'm sure form plays its part in design, perhaps not just to the extent that you'd like us all to believe eh?
    Don't be such a luddite! :wink:
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    edited July 2008
    dennisn wrote:
    andy_wrx wrote:
    Well, they used to just paint it a different colour and say how much better it was than last year's model.
    Perhaps we got wise to that, so now they have to produce bigger, curvier, more triangle/diamond/etc-shaped tubes in order to tell us how much better it is than last year's model.
    As long as the advertising men can persuade us that we need to buy new bikes rather than stick with the ones we're got, they'll keep on thinking-up ways to do it.

    Which brings up another question. :roll: :roll: Why did steel bike frame makers keep the
    frames looking the same for so many years(even today)? Was it because it was as far
    as they could take frame design, with the materials available, and that changing tube shapes didn't accomplish anything? Were they the exact opposite of today's manufacturers in that form followed function? :? :?

    I suspect, in part, the answer regarding steel frames is that the manufacturers were supplied with tube sets by the likes of Reynolds which they brazed or welded up, so a Reynolds 531 frame is likely to have the same tube diameters regardless of the bike manufacturer. (Older Reynolds tube dimensions here).
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    wildmoustache wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    andy_wrx wrote:
    Well, they used to just paint it a different colour and say how much better it was than last year's model.
    Perhaps we got wise to that, so now they have to produce bigger, curvier, more triangle/diamond/etc-shaped tubes in order to tell us how much better it is than last year's model.
    As long as the advertising men can persuade us that we need to buy new bikes rather than stick with the ones we're got, they'll keep on thinking-up ways to do it.

    Which brings up another question. :roll: :roll: Why did steel bike frame makers keep the
    frames looking the same for so many years(even today)? Was it because it was as far
    as they could take frame design, with the materials available, and that changing tube shapes didn't accomplish anything? Were they the exact opposite of today's manufacturers in that form followed function? :? :?

    gee dennis ... not like to embrace change and new technology so wholeheartedly :wink:

    i'd say form does follow function in many instances ... big alu downtubes do offer something that steel didn't in stiffness to weight ratio

    I'm not against new things. I've got plenty of the latest stuff on my bike. Already planning to go for Dura-Ace or Campy electronic, whichever comes first. :wink:
    As for your other observation on downtubes. Maybe steel offers something aluminum can't. Same or more stiffness in a smaller diameter tube. I'm not sold on the idea that a
    bigger downtube is better. I'm betting that once the aluminum, titanium, and carbon fiber
    thing starts to lose steam that steel will make a comeback simply because the bike makers will demand that their marketing and sales boys come up with something "new".
    It won't be the "old timey" steel frames. The new ones will have all the twists and turns
    and then some. Of course they will be billed as more areo, better riding, faster, can't
    win without one, etc. It could happen. :? :?
  • andrewgturnbull
    andrewgturnbull Posts: 3,861
    dennisn wrote:
    I'm betting that once the aluminum, titanium, and carbon fiber
    thing starts to lose steam that steel will make a comeback simply because the bike makers will demand that their marketing and sales boys come up with something "new".
    It won't be the "old timey" steel frames. The new ones will have all the twists and turns
    and then some. Of course they will be billed as more areo, better riding, faster, can't
    win without one, etc. It could happen. :? :?

    Hi Dennis.

    I'm sure there's a growing market for old-school steel frames. I'm calling it the retro-grouchy demographic, and appointing you as the official figurehead!

    Hell - you can't even spell Aluminium!

    Cheers, Andy

    ps I'm road racing this wed night on my carbon-fibre wonder bike, then grass track racing on my old-school 1950's steel track bike on Sunday, finallly I'll be back on my alumin-ium TT bike with it's huuuuge down-tube next Wed night!
    http://www.andyturnbull.co.uk
    http://www.stirlingtri.co.uk
  • andrewgturnbull
    andrewgturnbull Posts: 3,861
    ps Twists and turns, weird and wonderful shapes: Ti and steel pretty much come in round tubes, you can forge drop-outs and other small stuff, but pretty much you're stuck to rolled tubes in varying thicknesses and diameters. Aluminium can be extruded into fairly wierd and wonderful shapes - see the Cervelo in my avatar here, while of course carbon can be laid up however the designer imagines.
    http://www.andyturnbull.co.uk
    http://www.stirlingtri.co.uk
  • ride_whenever
    ride_whenever Posts: 13,279
    isotruss...
    Neeermad
    Carbon 456
    456 lefty
    Pompino
    White Inbred
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    Hell - you can't even spell Aluminium!
    or fibre :wink:
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    andrewgturnbull wrote:
    dennisn wrote:

    Hi Dennis.

    Hell - you can't even spell Aluminium!

    Cheers, Andy

    Strangely enough I do know how to spell aluminum. I think the problem is that everyone
    "over there" needs to learn to speak and spell "good" English, like us Americans. :D:D
    What do you bet that that statement will get a few responses? :?: :?:
    Dennis Noward
  • andrewgturnbull
    andrewgturnbull Posts: 3,861
    dennisn wrote:
    andrewgturnbull wrote:
    dennisn wrote:

    Hi Dennis.

    Hell - you can't even spell Aluminium!

    Cheers, Andy

    Strangely enough I do know how to spell aluminum. I think the problem is that everyone
    "over there" needs to learn to speak and spell "good" English, like us Americans. :D:D
    What do you bet that that statement will get a few responses? :?: :?:
    Dennis Noward

    Sorry Dennis... just think of it as friendly fire...

    Cheers, Andy
    http://www.andyturnbull.co.uk
    http://www.stirlingtri.co.uk
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    andrewgturnbull wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    andrewgturnbull wrote:
    dennisn wrote:

    Hi Dennis.

    Hell - you can't even spell Aluminium!

    Cheers, Andy

    Strangely enough I do know how to spell aluminum. I think the problem is that everyone
    "over there" needs to learn to speak and spell "good" English, like us Americans. :D:D
    What do you bet that that statement will get a few responses? :?: :?:
    Dennis Noward

    Sorry Dennis... just think of it as friendly fire...

    Cheers, Andy

    No problem :):)

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