Gusev fired from Astana

Jez mon

thamacdaddy wrote:

I see what you are saying either a rider dopes or they don't right and if they don't they shouldn't be sacked in your opinion. Playing devils advocate here maybe Astana mgt have decided that a positive/negative dope test isn't the only matter in convincing the masses and that even a small indication such as blood values being wrong or fluctuations is enough to sully their image in which case they don't want riders without a good reason after some good testing to have these kinds of questions about their performances. Maybe also they know from experience that these indications may lead one day to a positive test and so rather than actually having confirmed dopers they want to rid their team of even remote chances of such a media event by acting when they see some early signs a rider isn't playing by the rules they want.

I doubt riders have signed something they didn't feel was acceptable to them and their lawyers. Employment contracts even for the most simple of jobs are complex I expect a pro tour riders to be even more so.

My point is the whole thing sounds rather odd. I appreciate that the contract will have lots of complicated legal stuff and that the tests are complex. BUT the quote from the article makes little sense. The rider has had some odd blood values, which apparently don't particularly indicate doping. Now these are the kind of results which warrant heavy investigation, to a) find out if there is any foul play and then possibly b) upon finding foul play, finding out who else has been sipping hot sauce.

A contract which allows a team to sack a rider, based upon them having what could well boil down to be natural blood values is IMO not too fair.

FullFrameRob

Blazing Saddles wrote:

nypd wrote:

I guess no matter what Astana do you just cant please some people.

I'd be very pleased if we could see a set of test results for him and the team, with the test parameters.
I'm certain this would put an end to any skeptical theorising.
Other than a privacy aspect, I can see no reason to carry out these tests, but keep the results under wraps.

Im sure they arnt keeping the results underwraps, im sure whoever needs to see the test results gets to see them. There really is no reason for the likes of you or indeed myself to see them, apart from satisfying a few peoples curiosity.

kourou

Can we just wait for a little more info?

It seems fairly likely that the statements' intent was either lost in translation or subject to libel fears - either:

a. they meant to say that these tests do not indicated 'definitively' the use of PEDs, but that they are sure beyond their (and their contract's) reasonable doubt. It may be they or journalists mistranslated it into English.

or

b. without an actual positive test the Astana general counsel would not allow the PR guy to be more direct.

Either way, he's gone, its a good thing.

Having said that, I would like to see Hct etc published for a team's riders (perhaps anonymously), and in the case of b. above, I would like to see Astana's contract allow them to be clearer (though like I say that may just have been an error), i.e. 'if you fall outside these parameters we will consider this a positive indication of PED use, and we will publicise it as such'.

josd

i find it amusing that people are criticizing astana for this action
if it were CSC or Slipstream, gusev would just be another "glitch" in a system desperately trying to clean itself up
but if its astana, gusev was a calculated risk to hide whats REALLY going on behind closed doors, or an innocent wrongly accused by the incompetent astana team

blazing_saddles

nypd wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

nypd wrote:

I guess no matter what Astana do you just cant please some people.

I'd be very pleased if we could see a set of test results for him and the team, with the test parameters.
I'm certain this would put an end to any skeptical theorising.
Other than a privacy aspect, I can see no reason to carry out these tests, but keep the results under wraps.

Im sure they arnt keeping the results underwraps, im sure whoever needs to see the test results gets to see them. There really is no reason for the likes of you or indeed myself to see them, apart from satisfying a few peoples curiosity.

Yes, I can see where you are coming from.

FullFrameRob

Blazing Saddles wrote:

nypd wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

nypd wrote:

I guess no matter what Astana do you just cant please some people.

I'd be very pleased if we could see a set of test results for him and the team, with the test parameters.
I'm certain this would put an end to any skeptical theorising.
Other than a privacy aspect, I can see no reason to carry out these tests, but keep the results under wraps.

Im sure they arnt keeping the results underwraps, im sure whoever needs to see the test results gets to see them. There really is no reason for the likes of you or indeed myself to see them, apart from satisfying a few peoples curiosity.

Yes, I can see where you are coming from.

Yes, and i can see where your coming from. You do sarcasm very well !

LangerDan

The early press releases from Slipstream indicated that "unusual values" would be dealt with by withdrawal from racing, a cup of tea and a group hug. I suspect that a similar reaction from Astana wouldn't be acceptable to ASO. Gusev has been dropped so Bruyneel can say "Look, Prudhomme, we are tough on drugs. Can we have an invite next year, pretty please?"

Interestedcp

Kléber wrote:

Generally good news.

But that has to be a watertight contract. What if the team doctor gave the guy something but got the dosage wrong, or he say he gets dehyrated during an altitude training camp and scores a big haematocrit. Does the guy get an independent party to verify his data?

Well, I don't know how Astana handles these things, but from I have gathered from CSC it goes something like this; regular testing gives the riders baseline for blood values. If an abnormal value shows up, they do more tests to eliminate that serious illness are causing the irregular blood values. Also, it doesn't appear that a single value are determining, but always several parameters that needs to be out of bounds. So it isn't the value from a single test, nor a single value like a haemotocrit over 50 that determines the outcome.

--
Regards

Arkibal

LangerDan wrote:

The early press releases from Slipstream indicated that "unusual values" would be dealt with by withdrawal from racing, a cup of tea and a group hug. I suspect that a similar reaction from Astana wouldn't be acceptable to ASO. Gusev has been dropped so Bruyneel can say "Look, Prudhomme, we are tough on drugs. Can we have an invite next year, pretty please?"

That is ridiculous, Gusev is a very good rider, Astana would never release him just because of PR....

flattythehurdler

Most likely: Gusev was doping and blood tests indicated this without actually testing positive for booster, hence fired under stipulations decided upon by daamsgard before he agreed to become the external reviewer.
Good news in my book, and good on Astana.

Arkibal

flattythehurdler wrote:

Most likely: Gusev was doping and blood tests indicated this without actually testing positive for booster, hence fired under stipulations decided upon by daamsgard before he agreed to become the external reviewer.
Good news in my book, and good on Astana.

agreed, and makes sence.

LangerDan

Arkibal wrote:

LangerDan wrote:

The early press releases from Slipstream indicated that "unusual values" would be dealt with by withdrawal from racing, a cup of tea and a group hug. I suspect that a similar reaction from Astana wouldn't be acceptable to ASO. Gusev has been dropped so Bruyneel can say "Look, Prudhomme, we are tough on drugs. Can we have an invite next year, pretty please?"

That is ridiculous, Gusev is a very good rider, Astana would never release him just because of PR....

I'm not suggesting Gusev has been released / discharged without justification. I'm just saying that Bruyneel has to be seen to deal decisively with "unusual values". The fact that Johann can now show that a) Astana have an internal anti-doping programme and b) are prepared to act (even in the grey zone where no doping has been proven) has to be of benefit in getting admission to the main ASO races.

dulldave

If they'd said Gusev was a drug cheat he would sue the ass off them. He hasn't been caught taking anything, it's just pretty clear to them that he has been.

iainf72

Oh well.

He's sueing them. How exciting. Hope the contract was well worded.

Kléber

Like I said before:

But that has to be a watertight contract. What if the team doctor gave the guy something but got the dosage wrong, or he say he gets dehyrated during an altitude training camp and scores a big haematocrit. Does the guy get an independent party to verify his data?

iainf72

I'd guess it would be a trend - Someone like Damsgaard isn't going to look at haematocrit alone - judging by what I've seen it's probably one of the less useful indicators of doping.

We'll see what happens I guess.