is miller teling the truth ?
I have been a fan of David Millar, even post his ban. However on ITV4 today when questioned re the current doping problem, he said that he had not heard of 3rd gen epo until 2 days ago - and then had to ask vaughters about it...
i just dont believe this - even i was aware of it a few weeks ago, and the fact that rasmussen was found to be +ve for this, allegedly last year.
Millar is in the peloton FFS. Why would he lie about this ?
i just dont believe this - even i was aware of it a few weeks ago, and the fact that rasmussen was found to be +ve for this, allegedly last year.
Millar is in the peloton FFS. Why would he lie about this ?
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I hadn't heard about it until two days ago.0
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Rasmussen's stuff was Dynepo, this latest stuff is Mircera. Why would Millar know about it?0
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I'd heard of Dynepo and CERA three or four years ago - but that was to do with my job*, not due to cycling. I'd seen CERA mentioned in connection with the Oil for Drugs case and recognised it, due to having heard of it before.
* I work in Patents, there was a landmark legal decision regarding Amgen's EPO patent and alleged infringement by the makers of Dynepo - CERA got mixed up in it.Twitter: @RichN950 -
So are Dynepo and CERA/Micera similar things under different brand names?
Without getting too technical, what makes CERA a "3rd generation" form of EPO?0 -
My understanding is that it stimulates the kidneys to produce more erythropoietin, which is a natural hormone, whereas Amgen's product is exogenous EPO, i.e. synthetic.0
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afx237vi wrote:So are Dynepo and CERA/Micera similar things under different brand names?
Without getting too technical, what makes CERA a "3rd generation" form of EPO?
I'm not a biochemist, so I'm not really sure. Dynepo is made in a very slightly different way to Epogen - I think both use animal cells - the patents are for the method of production, not the end product. CERA, I believe, uses human cells and differs by a lot more and is subject to a patent case in the US (I think).
But I'm and engineer by education, not a biochemist, so I may be talking nonsense. I read the patent decision, but ithe chemitry bits may as well have been wriiten in Swedish.Twitter: @RichN950 -
You know, when I saw the interview on TV this evening for a very brief moment I did ponder the possibility that Millar is simply spoofing everyone...but then his performance hasnt exactl been eyebrow raising.0
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Dynepo seems to come from human cells and is pretty similar to epo. Mircera has a great big poly(ethylene glycol) chain grafted onto the end of it - this is what is responsible for its much longer stay in the body, and slower release into the system, for want of a better term.Le Blaireau (1)0
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RichN95 wrote:afx237vi wrote:So are Dynepo and CERA/Micera similar things under different brand names?
Without getting too technical, what makes CERA a "3rd generation" form of EPO?
I'm not a biochemist, so I'm not really sure. Dynepo is made in a very slightly different way to Epogen - I think both use animal cells. CERA, I believe, uses human cells and differs by a lot more and is subject to a patent case in the US (I think).
But I'm and engineer by education, not a biochemist, so I may be talking nonsense. I read the patent decision, but ithe chemitry bits may as well have been wriiten in Swedish.
I thought it worked as Epogen was cultured in animal cells, Dynepo in human ones. Both effectively acted as replacements for the naturally produced EPO. I think (and don't quote me) that CERA is attached to something called PEG and binds to the bits that produce EPO to encourage its production rather than mimicking it.0 -
leguape wrote:RichN95 wrote:afx237vi wrote:So are Dynepo and CERA/Micera similar things under different brand names?
Without getting too technical, what makes CERA a "3rd generation" form of EPO?
I'm not a biochemist, so I'm not really sure. Dynepo is made in a very slightly different way to Epogen - I think both use animal cells. CERA, I believe, uses human cells and differs by a lot more and is subject to a patent case in the US (I think).
But I'm and engineer by education, not a biochemist, so I may be talking nonsense. I read the patent decision, but ithe chemitry bits may as well have been wriiten in Swedish.
I thought it worked as Epogen was cultured in animal cells, Dynepo in human ones. Both effectively acted as replacements for the naturally produced EPO. I think (and don't quote me) that CERA is attached to something called PEG and binds to the bits that produce EPO to encourage its production rather than mimicking it.
As I say, I'm an engineer, not a biochemist. I read the patent decision about three years ago, and I didn't understand it then.Twitter: @RichN950 -
i dont think that millar is using the stuff, its just im sure that anyone in the peloton would know exactly what is going on. This is why his claims of ignorance are so depressing.
In a similar vein, the TDF podcast interviewed Mr 60%. Of course now CSC are clean, doing everything they can etc etc. Didnt want to dwell on 1996 as that is in the past. However 2003 is not that long ago - surely somebody in the team would have noticed Tyler's transfusions.0 -
Surely if Millar is clean, and one assumes he is given his comments, then he'd make damn sure he didn't keep abreast of drug developments, purely to prevent groundless attacks like this one?
Just a thought.0 -
The new version means that you only have to inject it once a fortnight or once month. Kidney dialysis patients (for whom the drug was invented before the damn cyclists found it) have to inject each time they dialyse, usually three times a week. This new one, with the slow release bit (CERA) means you inject less often. It is my understanding, and here my knowledge gets fuzzy, that they are detecting the slow release bit, not the actual epo.
As an aside, although I must check with my nephrologist next month, I think it is also more expensive and won't be used by most kidney patients immediately. The drug companies do this to make more money. Oh yes, and to help the patients.0 -
elvis6093 wrote:i dont think that millar is using the stuff, its just im sure that anyone in the peloton would know exactly what is going on. This is why his claims of ignorance are so depressing.
In a similar vein, the TDF podcast interviewed Mr 60%. Of course now CSC are clean, doing everything they can etc etc. Didnt want to dwell on 1996 as that is in the past. However 2003 is not that long ago - surely somebody in the team would have noticed Tyler's transfusions.
When I have had transfusions, all you need to do is hang up the bag, and stick in the needle. anyone can do it, you don't need sterile conditions. The only difficulty is keeping your own blood or someone else's blood from spoiling. Not that difficult. With riders "going home" to train all the time, and not having 324 hour supervision, what is so difficult about doing a drug programme or a blood doping programme on your own or with your own advisors?
One thing I heve learned over the years is that if you are no longer in a drug culture of one sort or another, you stop talking about it with your old mates. You become "out of it".0 -
hamilton recieved 2 tranfusions during the 2003 tour. somebody must have seen, or perhaps he kept the blood in his bidons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Hamilton0 -
Can I propose a simple answer? An accomplice with a camping box, with those frozen blue whatsits in it?
I stand to be corrected, but blood is not exceedingly difficult to handle in a modern country, if you have a bit of money. A transfusion is a piece of cake. I stand to be corrected.0 -
treize vents wrote:The new version means that you only have to inject it once a fortnight or once month. Kidney dialysis patients (for whom the drug was invented before the damn cyclists found it) have to inject each time they dialyse, usually three times a week. This new one, with the slow release bit (CERA) means you inject less often. It is my understanding, and here my knowledge gets fuzzy, that they are detecting the slow release bit, not the actual epo.
As an aside, although I must check with my nephrologist next month, I think it is also more expensive and won't be used by most kidney patients immediately. The drug companies do this to make more money. Oh yes, and to help the patients.
According to ITV's podcast today, there's a rumour that the reason Ricco got tested so often was that they wanted enough of his urine so that they could boil it down to a concentrate so they could detect the CERA. How that fits in with Beltran and the other guy I don't know. They said it was only a rumour.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Like all drugs, I find you're either in the loop, or out of it. Those inside will lie through their teeth to protect the circle. :roll:0
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I too thought Millar hesitated a lot about the question and then when he answered, I immediately said to my Other Half out loud "I don't believe him", even though she was deep in her book and wasn't following the programme, so had no idea what I was talking about.elvis6093 wrote:I have been a fan of David Millar, even post his ban. However on ITV4 today when questioned re the current doping problem, he said that he had not heard of 3rd gen epo until 2 days ago - and then had to ask vaughters about it...
i just dont believe this - even i was aware of it a few weeks ago, and the fact that rasmussen was found to be +ve for this, allegedly last year.
Millar is in the peloton FFS. Why would he lie about this ?
Although initially not its exact name, I've felt I've known of this drug for about 4 years. About 2004, I spoke with an American work colleague (cycling top amateur level 15 years ago) about my suspicions about LA. My work colleague surprisingly admitted (Americans are usually very defensive about their land and people) that LA probably used some Epo drug not yet on the market.0 -
:roll: Why should Millar be aware of recent drug developments??You live and learn. At any rate, you live0
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I believed him. I am a cynic, but also believe that csc, columbia, and garmin are racing clean. I have to or I'd pack it in. (also fdj)Dan0
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elvis6093 wrote:I have been a fan of David Millar, even post his ban. However on ITV4 today when questioned re the current doping problem, he said that he had not heard of 3rd gen epo until 2 days ago - and then had to ask vaughters about it...
i just dont believe this - even i was aware of it a few weeks ago, and the fact that rasmussen was found to be +ve for this, allegedly last year.
Millar is in the peloton FFS. Why would he lie about this ?
Who on the peloton would talk to Millar about their program?0 -
Look, several of us on here are amateur haematologists now just from following the sport. If we know what's going on, imagine what some in the bunch know.
Jerome Pineau said a similar thing, "I'm only interested in the latest carbon technology, the latest Nike cycling shoe, I've never heard of this product." he said on TV last night. Compare this to his blog which reads " I'd heard of this product a while ago and went on a website where I found information on its composition."
There's a gap there, but maybe the blog is ghostwritten, like many articles seemingly from pros...0 -
What options has the guy got ?
1. He says he knows about this new EPO and has for a while. Everyone accuses him of having too much doping knowledge - and clearly he must be on it.
2. He says he just heard of it - everyone accuses him of lying - clearly he must be on it.
3. He refuses to talk about it - like riders of old - well clearly he must be on it....
He just cant win can he ?0 -
I would've expected him to know about the 3G EPO long ago, as he is now outspoken about drug use....warning the press and others about this new drug thats even 'better' than what was being used when he got caught and that tests should be in place.
Just like me knowing about Dura Ace 7900 weeks and weeks ago even though I'm staunchly against its use, will never use it myself and note that only a few pros in the Tour are using it.I'd rather walk than use Shimano0 -
cougie wrote:What options has the guy got ?
1. He says he knows about this new EPO and has for a while. Everyone accuses him of having too much doping knowledge - and clearly he must be on it.
2. He says he just heard of it - everyone accuses him of lying - clearly he must be on it.
3. He refuses to talk about it - like riders of old - well clearly he must be on it....
He just cant win can he ?
I was thinking something similar.
That said it struck me as odd as well, i would have thought that someone committed to cleaning up the sport would keep abreast of the latest developments - anyone who does follow how EPO is advancing would know of new advancements?0 -
Millar is a member of WADA's Athletic Committee. I would expect him to be reasonably up-to-date on developments.'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0
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Kléber wrote:Look, several of us on here are amateur haematologists now just from following the sport. If we know what's going on, imagine what some in the bunch know.
Well, IMO, you have to have a very active interest in the darker side of the sport to gain that status. You can "just follow" the sport and not really know anything about doping.
Of course, some in the bunch might know a lot. BUT even those taking the drugs (if Dwain Chambers is anything to go by), don't really know what they are putting in to their body.
My theory is, David Millar knew about a new form of EPO, but didn't know the trade name, Ricco is hardly likely to go blabbing about his fantastic advantage is he?You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
LangerDan wrote:Millar is a member of WADA's Athletic Committee. I would expect him to be reasonably up-to-date on developments.
In the same was that an adviser to the bio passport, interviewed on this very site wasn't aware of the CERA test existing and "amazed" that Ricco had been pulled for it?
http://www.bikeradar.com/blogs/article/ ... tive-175950
