Should riders be given a lifetime ban?

Felix-da-house-mouse

Hi,

just had a thougth, after more "pro" cyclists testing positive for drugs epo etc on this years tour my question is if a pro cyclist tests positive for a banned substance should they be permanently banned from competing in any type of race? after all these guys are setting an example to future generations.

Kléber

Nice idea but the doping code is just that, a code. Once you start banning people for life, it gets contentious in relation to human rights issues. A two year ban is serious enough to ruin many a career.

Remember, it's not the length of the ban that scares most riders, it's the chance of getting caught. Anyone can make a ban last 999 years, but the real issue is detection. Once riders know their chances of being caught are high, they won't risk a one year ban as it would blacken their name, damage the team and more.

andyp

Think of it like this - your employer asks you to engage in dubious practices such as price fixing, fraud or obtaining money by deception and tells you that if you don't then you're out of a job. You comply as you don't really have much choice but then you get caught. Your employer claims you were acting on your own and you get a 15 year prison sentence whilst he gets to carry on as if nothing has happened.

How would you feel?

Eurostar

A life time ban would mean no Miller. Sorry, Millar. I don't think I want that.

DaveyL

Thee's another one for the auto-correct to pick up...

Felix-da-house-mouse

i've heard Sean Kelly on eurosport discussing this with his commentry pals and it was him that wanted to see a complete ban. a 2 year ban isnt enough because people and teams are still doing it and it ruining the reputation etc of cycling. like vinokourov last year had a bad off one day then went out the next day like a bloody locamotive and won the stage it was a stick on he was up to no good.

iainf72

Felix-da-house-mouse wrote:

i've heard Sean Kelly on eurosport discussing this with his commentry pals and it was him that wanted to see a complete ban. a 2 year ban isnt enough because people and teams are still doing it and it ruining the reputation etc of cycling. like vinokourov last year had a bad off one day then went out the next day like a bloody locamotive and won the stage it was a stick on he was up to no good.

So explain how that would have ANY impact on stopping riders doping?

It wouldn't. Punishment does not stop crime. Good detection does. If you're going to be found out, you are less likely to do it. If you're not going to be found out then what difference does the punishment make?

Kléber

As I say, testing is the real thing, being able to catch the cheats.

Imagine two worlds...

World A has lifetime bans but a 10% chance of being caught per year.

World B has a 100% chance of getting caught but only a month ban.

Which world would be cleaner? I'd say World A allows some riders here can spend a decade before they get caught, luckier ones might even last longer. World B means any rider who wins because of doping would be rumbled, stripped of their wins and see their reputation tarnished.

Now World B doesn't exist but you can tinker with the length of the ban but it doesn't matter. It's like the death penalty, which doesn't deter murder. Some studies suggest murder rates are lower in US states where detection rates are better, not where people get electrified to death or injected with poison.

dirk_van_gently

So long as the testing processes can be 100% guaranteed accurate, YES then a lifetime ban.
I think that is the problem though, the testing isn't 100%.
Probably why the IOC dropped lifetime bans in the first case, and bought in the 2 year ban.
Opened the floodgates to dopers in all sports.

The focus of anti doping always seems to be on Cycling, and yet it is rife in Athletics, and other sports. Hell GB has known dopers going to the Olympics, what message does that send out?

alanmcn1

I'd like to see a mixture of these. i think everyone needs to be given a second chance, but a 4-5 year ban seriously hampers a cyclists career and would maybe be more of a deterrant than the current 2 years (Basso for the Giro next year anyone?)

Howvere as someone who has fallen foul of the goevrning bodies of my profession (very long story) I can assure everyone that the process of being investigated, found guilty and reprimanded is much more damaging and crushing than the extent of the punishment. Only if we can make it 99% impossible to avoid being caught will we rid doping to a reasonable extent. That means a totally independent tetsing authority with no links to the cycling world, and reprimands for team managers and DSs, along with possibly reprimands for the teams. I don;t think for a minute these guys are acting alone, and also cycnically beleive the reason guys like Pozzato and Valv/Piti havent been caught is becuase of massive help from the team.

Sorry, bit of a rant, but doping is taking away from a great race......................again

Felix-da-house-mouse

who was saying anything about not improving testing??? i am mearly stating if the penalties were higher it would also be a further deterrent AS WELL as improving testing. i never once said increase penalties but drop the efficiency of testing so get off yer high horses.

Felix-da-house-mouse

if you got life in prison for littering would you still do it?

iainf72

Felix-da-house-mouse wrote:

if you got life in prison for littering would you still do it?

Would I be caught?

Is the only reason you don't murder someone or steal because of the punishment? If so, could you please never come near me.

Felix-da-house-mouse

alanmcn1 wrote:

I'd like to see a mixture of these. i think everyone needs to be given a second chance, but a 4-5 year ban seriously hampers a cyclists career and would maybe be more of a deterrant than the current 2 years (Basso for the Giro next year anyone?)

Howvere as someone who has fallen foul of the goevrning bodies of my profession (very long story) I can assure everyone that the process of being investigated, found guilty and reprimanded is much more damaging and crushing than the extent of the punishment. Only if we can make it 99% impossible to avoid being caught will we rid doping to a reasonable extent. That means a totally independent tetsing authority with no links to the cycling world, and reprimands for team managers and DSs, along with possibly reprimands for the teams. I don;t think for a minute these guys are acting alone, and also cycnically beleive the reason guys like Pozzato and Valv/Piti havent been caught is becuase of massive help from the team.

Sorry, bit of a rant, but doping is taking away from a great race......................again

i totally agree.

dirk_van_gently

alanmcn1 wrote:

Sorry, bit of a rant, but doping is taking away from a great race......................again

So stop posting on this thread and it will fall off the radar.

Oh :oops:

redddraggon

Felix-da-house-mouse wrote:

who was saying anything about not improving testing??? i am mearly stating if the penalties were higher it would also be a further deterrent AS WELL as improving testing. i never once said increase penalties but drop the efficiency of testing so get off yer high horses.

There's no real need to increase the penalties - look at the likes of Tyler Hamilton, he got caught, and probably won't get any where near any of the prestigious races again, but I reckon if he go back to before he was caught he'd do it again because he knows the chances of actually getting caught aren't all that great. At least cycling has got one up on most of the other sports - at least we actually catch riders, unlike sports which the general (stupid) public think are clean.

Some like David Millar have done well after coming back after a ban - should he have got a lifetime ban? He's part owner in a "clean team", apparantly trying to be part of the solution against doping.

Personally I wouldn't agree with a lifetime ban (except maybe for a 2nd or 3rd offence)

dirk_van_gently

Clearly the penalties for cheathing are not harsh enough

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12578071

iainf72

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

Clearly the penalties for cheathing are not harsh enough

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12578071

Can you explain how penalties would help?

redddraggon

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

Clearly the penalties for cheathing are not harsh enough

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12578071

He got caught, but he reckoned he wouldn't get caught and that's why he took the risk

socrates

Detection - Great idea and after they are caught then give them a lifetime ban. No second chances. After all they know they are cheating, stealing other riders prize money, glory and innocence. It is obvious that some riders are not ashamed to be caught and dont care about their reputation. Lifetime ban the only way.

robmanic1

If you dope and get caught, you will have your balls cut-off with no anesthetic. Still doping, even though there's only a 10% chance of getting caught???

It's time for a "line in the sand", if you get caught, you're finished for life, everyone knows where they stand. Clearly testing needs improving as well, but to say punishment doesn't deter is naive imo.

Felix-da-house-mouse

ricardo obv fancied his chances of not getting caught but would he have taken whatever if he knew he could lose his livelihood. He's still young and looked(looks) a hot prospect for the future.

How can anyone say that increasing the penalty's isnt going to put the off? of course it is.

iainf72

Felix-da-house-mouse wrote:

How can anyone say that increasing the penalty's isnt going to put the off? of course it is.

How? Why? Seriously.

Ricco being bust will have more of an effect than any penalty. Especially if others are using the same substance and think it's undetectable.

You will not ride as well sans EPO as you will with EPO. It's not like you can perform at the same level without. They don't take this stuff for kicks - They take it to win or just survive and get paid.

mr_hippo

It's time for the 'tough love' approach - Positive A + B samples should result in a ban sine die and no excuses/appeals or retro-active medicals and the team should be banned as well. Riders achievements should be expunged from all record books and no further involvement with the professional peloton.
The sine die ban should be retro-active so anyone in the professional peloton who has had a previous ban - get another job.

giant_man

Of course riders should be given a lifetime ban, how fair is it not to ban them for life? Certanily not on riders who are clean.

The likes of David Millar wouldn't be ranting on now how much he's against it. Bloody hypocrite!

dirk_van_gently

iainf72 wrote:

Can you explain how penalties would help?

Perhaps I should have written punishment, not penalties, clearly a penalty shoot out has no place in cycling

I still say lifetime ban, and add "Cheating B'stard" tattooed across their forehead.

dirk_van_gently

giant mancp wrote:

David Millar ...Bloody hypocrite!

do you mean Bloody Haemacrit

richa

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

I still say lifetime ban, and add "Cheating B'stard" tattooed across their forehead.

Oh yeah. Well lift up the bandanna then to prove you're not one of them....

fruit bars with eyes

difficult to think of what cycling would be like with no eddy merckx, thevent, de vlaeminck, anquetil, sean kelly, lance armstrong and others who tested positive in their careers if they'd been banned immediately....

robmanic1

Clearly a retrospective ban would be pointless and difficult to enforce, but if the lines are drawn now there can be no arguments in the future.

fruit bars with eyes

they are already changing results of past races (see periero the tour winner, stages ricco won in tour, millar's victories etc.) - but i am talking of the future- take away the best riders now (ricco, basso, contador, rasmussen, vino, whoever) and we risk no sport at all- unless you believe there are some good clean riders out there which i don't- all the good ones tend to end up positive if you ask me- so i'd rather the focus was on the cultural rather than individual 'bad apple' posturing- lets go after the medics, docs, laboratories, supply routes , the old 'trainers' with the camper vans