Lim on Landis
NervexProf
Posts: 4,202
Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom
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NervexProf wrote:
A really interesting article. It also reveals that the Kimmage has his beliefs and tries to make everything fit that. For example he states:However, there is one subject that, two years later, still leaves Allen curiously tongue-tied: “What happened at Morzine, Allen? Tell me about Floyd.”
but in fact, that's completely false. Lim actually has a lot to say and basically gives the answer for how Landis beat everyone. And it's totally plausible.On the 15th stage to L’Alpe d’Huez, Landis seized control of the race and its prized yellow jersey but cracked a day later, losing 10 minutes on the mountain-top finish at La Toussuire.
“I was at the hotel, waiting for him to finish,” Lim says, “and the power profile that day was, like, good, good, good and then no more fuel. He had bonked [forgotten to eat], it was that simple.”
Lim spent a lot of time tossing and turning that night and returned to Landis’s hotel before breakfast the following morning with a plan he called “thermal regulation”. “I went to his room and said, ‘Hey, look, if you were riding by yourself and it was 65 degrees Fahrenheit and the rest of the pack was chasing you in 110 degrees weather, what would you think your chances were?’ And framed from that perspective he thought his chances were pretty good. We asked the soigneurs [masseurs] to fill up all these extra ice-cold water bottles in the car and hatched this plan that he would go off the front and keep himself cool by throwing all these water bottles on.”0 -
If you think that's totally plausible then the bridge I was offering on another thread is still for sale...0
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donrhummy wrote:NervexProf wrote:
A really interesting article. It also reveals that the Kimmage has his beliefs and tries to make everything fit that. For example he states:However, there is one subject that, two years later, still leaves Allen curiously tongue-tied: “What happened at Morzine, Allen? Tell me about Floyd.”
but in fact, that's completely false. Lim actually has a lot to say and basically gives the answer for how Landis beat everyone. And it's totally plausible.On the 15th stage to L’Alpe d’Huez, Landis seized control of the race and its prized yellow jersey but cracked a day later, losing 10 minutes on the mountain-top finish at La Toussuire.
“I was at the hotel, waiting for him to finish,” Lim says, “and the power profile that day was, like, good, good, good and then no more fuel. He had bonked [forgotten to eat], it was that simple.”
Lim spent a lot of time tossing and turning that night and returned to Landis’s hotel before breakfast the following morning with a plan he called “thermal regulation”. “I went to his room and said, ‘Hey, look, if you were riding by yourself and it was 65 degrees Fahrenheit and the rest of the pack was chasing you in 110 degrees weather, what would you think your chances were?’ And framed from that perspective he thought his chances were pretty good. We asked the soigneurs [masseurs] to fill up all these extra ice-cold water bottles in the car and hatched this plan that he would go off the front and keep himself cool by throwing all these water bottles on.”
Oh dear.
Bought that bridge yet?0 -
So was Allen Lim complicit or not?Le Blaireau (1)0
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This was another of the excuses for the positive, wasn't it?0
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They ALL get cold water anyway - a refrigerated van in the convoy is loaded with bidons to supply the riders. That bloke is totally implausible.T Farr0
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So how many cold bottles did the riders in the peloton have each? And how many did Landis have? Did you see the stage in question?Le Blaireau (1)0
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One of the biggest curiosities of that entire day was how many bottles Landis was getting from the car. He'd get one, pour the whole lot over his head and then get another handed up straight away. Of course, he could do that because he was on his own and had a team car right behind him. The peloton had no such luxury.
So it's an interesting theory, but I still don't buy it.
I wonder why Kimmage just didn't come straight out and ask Lim whether he thinks Landis was doped or not. It's a bit of a cop-out IMO. He starts the article all confrontational - here's the man who I think doped Floyd Landis - but ends up all chummy in the kitchen making sandwiches. Disappointing.0 -
Thermal regulation eh ? whatever will they think of next . I knew there was a totally plausible explanation although i thought it might have something to do with vanishing twins drinking Jack Daniels .The UCI are Clowns and Fools0
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Squaggles wrote:Thermal regulation eh ? whatever will they think of next . I knew there was a totally plausible explanation although i thought it might have something to do with vanishing twins drinking Jack Daniels .
Yeah, it must be absolute nonsense. Not something the British team would ever do or believe in.
http://news.scotsman.com/uk/The-secret- ... 4153475.jpFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
He took so many bottles of water that day, they had to introduce a hose pipe ban in the Alps.
There's far more obvious reason for his need to keep cool.
Saw another thread, just this week, regarding Floyd's.......erm......excited state,
:oops: upon his arrival at Morzine.
Clearly seen by a lot of people. He was whipped away, to be......um....taken in hand. :shock: :oops:"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Squaggles wrote:Thermal regulation eh ? whatever will they think of next . I knew there was a totally plausible explanation although i thought it might have something to do with vanishing twins drinking Jack Daniels .
As Iain says, it's a fairly proven method now. Allen Lim is also using it with Garmin - the ice vests before the Giro TTT and the ice socks they've been using on the TDF. The England cricket team have also been using ice vests in hot weather for some time now.
The only thing "extraordinary" about Landis' victory that day in terms of the performance is that every other GC contender sat there squabbling and expecting him to blow because he had bonked the day before while he got out to nearly 15 minutes on them by effectively riding a 100km plus TT, something not beyond a guy coming from MTB background and enduro racing and a strong TTer anyway.
The guy took 30 secs to a minute out of them on the final descent, was that down to testosterone or just being a good descender and all-round bike handler?0 -
leguape wrote:Squaggles wrote:Thermal regulation eh ? whatever will they think of next . I knew there was a totally plausible explanation although i thought it might have something to do with vanishing twins drinking Jack Daniels .
As Iain says, it's a fairly proven method now. Allen Lim is also using it with Garmin - the ice vests before the Giro TTT and the ice socks they've been using on the TDF. The England cricket team have also been using ice vests in hot weather for some time now.
The only thing "extraordinary" about Landis' victory that day in terms of the performance is that every other GC contender sat there squabbling and expecting him to blow because he had bonked the day before while he got out to nearly 15 minutes on them by effectively riding a 100km plus TT, something not beyond a guy coming from MTB background and enduro racing and a strong TTer anyway.
The guy took 30 secs to a minute out of them on the final descent, was that down to testosterone or just being a good descender and all-round bike handler?
+1. It was a grat ride over and above the testosterone. I'm certainly not disputing that he was positive and is guilty. The guy had synthetic testosterone in his sytem on several days during that Tour (as did many other riders, no doubt, given how prevalent doping is), so why wasn't he raging away tearing the peloton to shreds and giving it the old Captain Caveman when he crossed the line on those days as well?Le Blaireau (1)0 -
I cant see how throwing water over you can cool you for any more than a few seconds to be honest. His core temperature wouldnt have been affected.
He's a drug cheat and all of these ridiculous excuses - are just that - ridiculous.0 -
Of course he's a drug cheat. But he was cheating on several other days during the Tour, as were, no doubt, many other riders. So why only one insane lone breakaway? A combinaton of factors - lack of organisation/will/ability to chase in the other GC guys is one factor - the cooling/hydration may be another.
I dont know Lim's relationship with Phonak, but I would imagine he was a rather marginal figure employed only by Landis to do power analysis - look at all their other +ve tests in Phonak, he wasn't involved with any of them. I think for him to come out and say "Yeah, I accept Floyd's been busted", well, it's not going to happen. He has to say something though. deep down he probably has accepted that Landis doped.
If we are going to question Lim's part in this, it has pretty big implications for the Garmin team, I'd say...Le Blaireau (1)0 -
cougie wrote:I cant see how throwing water over you can cool you for any more than a few seconds to be honest. His core temperature wouldnt have been affected.
He's a drug cheat and all of these ridiculous excuses - are just that - ridiculous.
Same physiological principle as sweating isn't it - temperature differential is created and the water cools quicker in the air on the body surface thus cooling the blood flowing through the vessels near the surface.0 -
cougie wrote:I cant see how throwing water over you can cool you for any more than a few seconds to be honest. His core temperature wouldnt have been affected.
Dr Ferrari sez
http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=81Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
You can see why he's a doctor :
"The EVAPORATION of sweat is an efficient mechanism (if air humidity is not too high): every gram of sweat that evaporates takes away 0.6 Kcal, whereas the sweat that falls to the ground or that impregnates the clothes has no effect on heat reduction.
It is known that heavy perspiration exposes to the risk of dehydration."0 -
The England team at the 2006 World Cup had ice vests.iainf72 wrote:Yeah, it must be absolute nonsense. Not something the British team would ever do or believe in.
http://news.scotsman.com/uk/The-secret- ... 4153475.jp
Without them, they wouldn’t have managed the unimpressive and lucky victory against Paraguay, the lucky hanging-on draw against Sweden, or the very flattering wins over Trinidad and Ecuador.
But the ice vests failed the ultimate test – they didn’t help Rooney keep his cool against Portugal.0
