Colnago - Extreme Power vs C50 vs CX-1
A bit confused on Colnago frames...they currently seem to have 3 top end frames (excluding the Extreme-C)...
1) C50 - hollow chainstays, which i presume as no one else has adopted this design, was a design mistake?
2) Extreme Power - big advertising point was extreme stiffness and the extra comfort etc of lugged carbon contruction. btw this has 'wishbone chainstay' so presumably they decided by this time, that the chainstays on the C50 were a bad idea?
3) CX-1 - revamped frame - hang on - no holes in the chainstays and no lugs in the front end triangle. Also they say stiffer than the Exteme Power....
But ALL appear to be on sale now... if the bike manufacturer can not decide what is the best frame how can they expect me to be anything less than confused?
1) C50 - hollow chainstays, which i presume as no one else has adopted this design, was a design mistake?
2) Extreme Power - big advertising point was extreme stiffness and the extra comfort etc of lugged carbon contruction. btw this has 'wishbone chainstay' so presumably they decided by this time, that the chainstays on the C50 were a bad idea?
3) CX-1 - revamped frame - hang on - no holes in the chainstays and no lugs in the front end triangle. Also they say stiffer than the Exteme Power....
But ALL appear to be on sale now... if the bike manufacturer can not decide what is the best frame how can they expect me to be anything less than confused?
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As I understand it, the Extreme Power is a beefier version of the C50 - same construction methods (carbon lugs / tubes). The main differences being with the stays. When you say 'hollow' stays - I think it's what Colnago call HP stays. I don't think they were a design mistake, they're there for comfort and can be found on later C40s, Dream (alu / carbon frames) and C50s. The Extreme Power has what I think are called 'folio' stays, which are supposedly stiffer.
The CX-1 is a different frame altogether - it's a new design. It has a carbon monocoque front end bonded to carbon stays. It is also the first Colnago to feature an integrated headset. It's fair to say that it's aimed at a less 'traditional' Colnago-buying market. If you were to compare it to anything in the existing Colnago range, in looks and construction it is closest to the CLX - although the marketing department would have us believe it's much better than that.
Also, the CX-1 is made in Taiwan (with the first bikes you mentioned being made in Italy). This opens up a whole other can of worms for the Colnago purists...0 -
Lots of manufacturers have various top end frames, each of them built with a different purpose/goal in mind. Neither is better than any other, it will all depend on what you need it for. Some people prefer comfort over stiffness, others need, or want, super stiff frames. There is no perfect bike, each of them make comprmises which is why there is no one 'top frame'.
The way I make it out is this.
1) The C50 is the all round bike. Built for a bit of everything and a good compromise between lightness, stiffness, comfort and durability. For non-racing mortals like me, this is the one I'd go for. The chainstay design is most likely patented which is why nobody else does them. Never been keen on the looks myself but can see no reason why it would be a bad idea.
2) The Extreme Power is built for stiffness. A good choice for sprinters and big powerful riders who need to get every watt out of a frame and on the road. Probably not as comfortable or as durable as the C50.
3) The CX-1 seems to have the same goal as the Extreme Power albeit updated with even more stiffness. Its monocoque contruction means custom sizes are out though so the Extreme Power will probably stay in the lineup for those with weird body shapes that need custom fitting.
There's also the Extreme C which is built with lightness as its main goal, favoured by climbers.
It would be nice to be in a pro team and get to choose the best bike for each situation. Us mere mortals just have to make the decision which one is likely to suit us best.0 -
Ash_ wrote:Also, the CX-1 is made in Taiwan (with the first bikes you mentioned being made in Italy). This opens up a whole other can of worms for the Colnago purists...
On a more practical point...the CX-1 also has a proprietary semi-integrated headset. Not sure I'd want my dream bike to have a headset used only by one frame of one manufacturer.I'd rather walk than use Shimano0 -
Rob Sallnow wrote:On a more practical point...the CX-1 also has a proprietary semi-integrated headset. Not sure I'd want my dream bike to have a headset used only by one frame of one manufacturer.
Quite right - you can say the same about the seatpost too. It's a Colnago-specific item which could cause problems with replacement further down the line.
I know this from experience - I needed an out of warranty replacement seatpost for my CLX. It took five weeks to get it. Five weeks! I also thought it was vastly overpriced (after all, the only people buying them are existing Colnago customers) but what could I do about it?0 -
Don't forget the the new Colnago EPS which migh pop up in the Tour apparently ;-)
System has it right. Geometries are the same. In order of comfort, C50>EC>EP (though difference in vertical compliance is very small - wheel choice and tyre pressure will make more difference). In order of stiffness EP>EC>C50 (EP is 30% stiffer than EC allegedly). Proprietary bits of CX-1 are a bit off-putting for me as previously commented. Also the EP and EC have round main tubes whereas the C50 uses Colnago's 'Master' shaped tubes which IMO are slightly less aesthetically pleasing.
All these frames are VERY solid compared to your average carbon frame. The Cervelo R3 feels incredibly fragile by comparison for example.
Talk to Mike at Maestro (www.maestro-uk.com) and he will give you good advice (and a good price).
There are also good reviews by Pez here:
EP http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/default.asp?pg=fullstory&id=5461
CLX http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=59410 -
James_London wrote:Talk to Mike at Maestro (www.maestro-uk.com) and he will give you good advice (and a good price).
If you're seriously thinking about getting one of these frames, you should also consider sourcing one from abroad. Prices can vary a lot from country to country, as can product availablity. A little bit a research could either save you cash, get what you want a lot quicker, or both.
For example, earlier in the year you could have got a 2008 C50 from Hungary for about 1900GBP. Sadly, with the current exchange rate, it's nearer 2400! But it is worth shopping around. A shop in Austria had a new 2008 C50 frame for 1400GBP on eBay a couple of months back (it was a size 48 sloping though)...0 -
Ash_ wrote:James_London wrote:Talk to Mike at Maestro (www.maestro-uk.com) and he will give you good advice (and a good price).
If you're seriously thinking about getting one of these frames, you should also consider sourcing one from abroad. Prices can vary a lot from country to country, as can product availablity. A little bit a research could either save you cash, get what you want a lot quicker, or both.
For example, earlier in the year you could have got a 2008 C50 from Hungary for about 1900GBP. Sadly, with the current exchange rate, it's nearer 2400! But it is worth shopping around. A shop in Austria had a new 2008 C50 frame for 1400GBP on eBay a couple of months back (it was a size 48 sloping though)...
Mr Perry may reserve his customers service skills for people buying frames, in which case you might be alright but my experience with him (just small fry Colnago fork) would make me rather buy it at full price from the official dealer than deal with him again. Undoubtedly the worst customer service I've ever had......and I used to use Ribble!!!!I'd rather walk than use Shimano0 -
Rob Sallnow wrote:Mr Perry may reserve his customers service skills for people buying frames, in which case you might be alright but my experience with him (just small fry Colnago fork) would make me rather buy it at full price from the official dealer than deal with him again. Undoubtedly the worst customer service I've ever had......and I used to use Ribble!!!!
Yes - fair point. He can be brusque but does know his onions!
Ribble are messing me around at the moment too. Maybe we should start a poll of service levels from online retailers. Might provide an incentive to them to up their games0 -
Rob Sallnow wrote:Mr Perry may reserve his customers service skills for people buying frames, in which case you might be alright but my experience with him (just small fry Colnago fork) would make me rather buy it at full price from the official dealer than deal with him again. Undoubtedly the worst customer service I've ever had......and I used to use Ribble!!!!
I'll have to second that I'm afraid. The gushing testimonies on Maestro's website from those spending a small fortune on high-end Colnagos didn't match up with the frankly bizarre way the guy went about dealing with my relatively mundane request. In fact, after a lengthy exchange of e-mails, he downright refused to order the part we had been discussing (the seatpost mentioned above). I don't need to go into more details, but it seemed to me an odd way to conduct a business.0 -
Well, I have had dealings with Mike Perry for a number of years now and I have only known him to offer me discounted prices and good advice. One word of warning though - he doesnt suffer fools. I think one only needs to p**s him off just the once and he will never speak to you again. 110% experienced though and for that he's a diamond.
However, if you prefer to spend several hundred extra on the frame and forks via windwave go ahead. I'd be spending the money saved on a better quality groupset/wheels.
Oh, and if you want poor customer service I suggest a trip to a well known local Bournemouth based shop. They can do you inflated prices too!0 -
tabmaster wrote:However, if you prefer to spend several hundred extra on the frame and forks via windwave go ahead. I'd be spending the money saved on a better quality groupset/wheels.
Mmm...looking at their prices they don't sound very competitive right now....
A C50 or an Extreme C with Carbon 75 fork: Windwave £2,599.95 ...Maestro £2,993.00.
An Extreme Power with Carbon 75 fork: Windwave £2,679.95 ...Maestro £3,084.00
A Cristallo with Carbon 75 fork: Windwave £2,099.95....Maestro £2,523.00
A Strada SC....Windwave £1,049.95....Maestro £1,290.00
A Street fork.......Windwave £239.95.....Maestro £256.00
And if you want to pay with you credit card at Maestro there now appears to be a 1% surcharge, but then whats another £30 when you are buying an Extreme Power from a real life Basil Fawlty?I'd rather walk than use Shimano0 -
Rob Sallnow wrote:tabmaster wrote:However, if you prefer to spend several hundred extra on the frame and forks via windwave go ahead. I'd be spending the money saved on a better quality groupset/wheels.
Mmm...looking at their prices they don't sound very competitive right now....
A C50 or an Extreme C with Carbon 75 fork: Windwave £2,599.95 ...Maestro £2,993.00.
An Extreme Power with Carbon 75 fork: Windwave £2,679.95 ...Maestro £3,084.00
A Cristallo with Carbon 75 fork: Windwave £2,099.95....Maestro £2,523.00
A Strada SC....Windwave £1,049.95....Maestro £1,290.00
A Street fork.......Windwave £239.95.....Maestro £256.00
And if you want to pay with you credit card at Maestro there now appears to be a 1% surcharge, but then whats another £30 when you are buying an Extreme Power from a real life Basil Fawlty?
I think you might be confusing Pounds and Euros on some of the the frames you listed0 -
Rob Sallnow wrote:
tabmaster wrote:
However, if you prefer to spend several hundred extra on the frame and forks via windwave go ahead. I'd be spending the money saved on a better quality groupset/wheels.
Mmm...looking at their prices they don't sound very competitive right now....
A C50 or an Extreme C with Carbon 75 fork: Windwave £2,599.95 ...Maestro £2,993.00.
An Extreme Power with Carbon 75 fork: Windwave £2,679.95 ...Maestro £3,084.00
A Cristallo with Carbon 75 fork: Windwave £2,099.95....Maestro £2,523.00
A Strada SC....Windwave £1,049.95....Maestro £1,290.00
A Street fork.......Windwave £239.95.....Maestro £256.00
And if you want to pay with you credit card at Maestro there now appears to be a 1% surcharge, but then whats another £30 when you are buying an Extreme Power from a real life Basil Fawlty?
I think you might be confusing Pounds and Euros on some of the the frames you listed
I saw that on Mike's site too and that is a bit confusing the way some of it is in £'s and some in Euros. However, I can tell you from personal experience that he is cheaper. He even adjusts his prices to the current exchange rate to make it fair.
Besides, if you read his bit about price fixing (which is what it is in effect when all the other uk outlets charge the RRP or risk being struck from the distributors xmas card list) he is hardly going to say all that and then charge more than the RRP, is he? :roll:
Other things to consider: He doesnt charge labour for building wheels or bikes, just does it for the love of it.
Doesnt stock hardshell crash hats because of his disdain for the fact that the helmet probably cost a couple of quid to make and then gets sold for about £100+
Furthermore, I am pretty sure he does enough business to be able to defer selling to those he might consider to be a complete muppet! Like I said, dont piss him off! Make him your friend and he is a goldmine of experience and imho talks a lot of sense (re: crash hats and price fixing).
If still unsure about the price difference then pick up the phone, its not rocket science...0 -
tabmaster wrote:Rob Sallnow wrote:
tabmaster wrote:
However, if you prefer to spend several hundred extra on the frame and forks via windwave go ahead. I'd be spending the money saved on a better quality groupset/wheels.
Mmm...looking at their prices they don't sound very competitive right now....
A C50 or an Extreme C with Carbon 75 fork: Windwave £2,599.95 ...Maestro £2,993.00.
An Extreme Power with Carbon 75 fork: Windwave £2,679.95 ...Maestro £3,084.00
A Cristallo with Carbon 75 fork: Windwave £2,099.95....Maestro £2,523.00
A Strada SC....Windwave £1,049.95....Maestro £1,290.00
A Street fork.......Windwave £239.95.....Maestro £256.00
And if you want to pay with you credit card at Maestro there now appears to be a 1% surcharge, but then whats another £30 when you are buying an Extreme Power from a real life Basil Fawlty?
I think you might be confusing Pounds and Euros on some of the the frames you listed
I saw that on Mike's site too and that is a bit confusing the way some of it is in £'s and some in Euros. However, I can tell you from personal experience that he is cheaper. He even adjusts his prices to the current exchange rate to make it fair.
Besides, if you read his bit about price fixing (which is what it is in effect when all the other uk outlets charge the RRP or risk being struck from the distributors xmas card list) he is hardly going to say all that and then charge more than the RRP, is he? :roll:
Other things to consider: He doesnt charge labour for building wheels or bikes, just does it for the love of it.
Doesnt stock hardshell crash hats because of his disdain for the fact that the helmet probably cost a couple of quid to make and then gets sold for about £100+
Furthermore, I am pretty sure he does enough business to be able to defer selling to those he might consider to be a complete muppet! Like I said, dont wee-wee him off! Make him your friend and he is a goldmine of experience and imho talks a lot of sense (re: crash hats and price fixing).
If still unsure about the price difference then pick up the phone, its not rocket science...
Oh Ok...I did see Euros but assumed that refered to the lefthand column....I was surprised he was looking more expensive.
The fact remains that from start to finish HE was the one that came over as the muppet (to put it very mildly) and if he feels justified in slagging off the official importer for practices and price and Parcelforce for service then I can do the same about him for the same reasons.I'd rather walk than use Shimano0 -
He's not slagging other firms off - he's just telling the truth!
Look, bottom line is this: If you want a Colnago in the colours YOU want it in and in the correct size not what the LBS has in stock and for less then try him out - in person. He likes to see you on your current bike so as to see if any improvement in position can be made. I know he offers you a coffee when you come in (to spend) but I get that in my LBS.
What do you have to lose? Except perhaps money when paying RRP elsewhere...0 -
Ash_ wrote:I know this from experience - I needed an out of warranty replacement seatpost for my CLX. It took five weeks to get it. Five weeks! I also thought it was vastly overpriced (after all, the only people buying them are existing Colnago customers) but what could I do about it?
I don't know size of seatpost the CLX takes, but my C50 takes a 28.0mm. Rather than restrict myself to this silly size, I just bought a USE 28.0 to 27.2 shim. Worked a treat. Incidentally, to the OP - I LOVE my C50 (in RB06 colour scheme). Very nice to ride.0 -
I bought a Ciocc Challenger from Mike about 7 years ago. I got the feeling then he is not a bloke to be messed with. But for really terrible customer service you should try Sigma Sport on Kingston. Its co owned by a guy called Ian who use to be an estate agent and it shows it really does.0
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Re the CLX seatpost, Ash, what was the reason for replacement? The reason I ask is that I had 3 warranty replacements of my 07 CLX aero seatpost and the 3rd time, Windwave sent the bike to Italy to be checked over.
The problem was that the clear coat and measuring grid was coming off in the vicinity of the seat clamp.
Personally I reckon it is bad design-- the pointy part of the aero r seat post is going to get pinched by the clamp and the stress on the clear coat must be enormous.
Interesting thoughts on Maestro Mike...I'm considering getting a C50 frame from him (mainly so I can get the colour I want)0 -
cyclingvet wrote:Re the CLX seatpost, Ash, what was the reason for replacement?
Pretty much the same as you by the sounds of it - lacquer damage at the back of the post, from incorrect clamping pressure, which on closer inspection had led to cracking of the carbon underneath.
The design's pretty suspect I think. The clamping forces are all wrong - the replacement post is also showing some damage to the lacquer already. I took the original stem and clamped it in the frame much lower down, well away from the existing hairline crack, and was able to crack the post again using between 2-4nm with a torque wrench (significantly less than the 6nm listed on it).
What I don't understand is that Colnago use the same seatpost on their Ibex MTB frame. I can't see how it could stand the battering...
That said, the Ibex has a double seatpost clamp, which may spread the clamping forces a little - I tried to get one of these but to no avail. I also notice that the 2008 CLX has a redesigned clamp area with slots cut into the side too, I guess allowing more flex in the frame, thus spreading the load a bit, and possibly avoiding damage to the seatpost.
The frame obviously can't go back, I've had it too long, but I do feel that I didn't really get the bike I was expecting - especially after shelling out for an out-of-warranty replacement seatpost after what I'd already paid for the CLX.
Out of interest Cyclingvet, what was done to your frame in Italy to improve it? If anything.
Oh, and apologies for diverting this thread somewhat, but then it seemed to have gone off after about the sixth post anyway...0 -
i suppose everyone is different in their views about Mike perry at Maestro.. i have bought 2 Colnago s and a Ciocc from him over the years and he`s been very helpfull, he was the only guy who could get my Colnago Master built with extended head and seat tubes aka Edwig van Hooydonck. had my Ciocc break 2 times and got it fixed and re-sprayed at no cost....all 3 still ride great. but like previous posts i think once you P*%$ him off customer service would get thrown out the window0
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I originally went with Mike on my Colnago Extreme but the date kept slipping. He then eventually informed me that the price of the frame was now in Euros rather then Sterling and If I didn't agree to that then I could have my depoist back. So I did and bought it cheaper locally and had it the following working day.
What I saved paid for a Chris King headset, a set of Deda Bars, stem and saddle.Paul0 -
Gazzetta67 wrote:but like previous posts i think once you P*%$ him off customer service would get thrown out the window
Yeah it was probably all my fault :?
My initial email enquiry....bearing in mind that in those days the mention on his site at the time was limited to the name, threadless and price of the fork only:
Hi I'm looking to upgrade my curved, threaded, chromed fork on my plain blue Colnago C95 and wanted to know whether the listed threadless Prescia fork was available painted or is it just chromed (something I want to avoid). Many thanks
His reply in full:
Only a head now Regards Mike
It went rather downhill after that. I probably pissed him off by not asking for a C50.I'd rather walk than use Shimano0 -
Ash, re the CLX frame going back to Italy-- they said they did something to the seat clamp, bit it looks no different to me! Yes I also noticed that the O8 CLX has a different clamp. Windwave told me that I was the only person in the UK to have suffered this problem!
They told me to use the FSA carbon paste stuff so that I can use lower torques So far, the 4th post looks OK, but I've ridden my Enigma more this year. (only take the CLX out in the dry)
Seriously thinking of a C50 for next year from Maestro.0 -
Cyclingvet - You're not the only one to suffer the problem, and Windwave should know that as I contacted them (amongst 'others').
I used Tacx carbon prep on both posts - and although I'd always use it now (even for alloy posts), I still think it's a bit unfair that the CLX seatpost can't actually withstand the forces written on its own clamp.
Being stoic about it, I guess there isn't a seatpost on any of my other bikes that is scuffed, scraped and scratched from movement, so why should the Colnago one be different? Though on the other hand, I am a bit worried about when Colnago discontinue this model (which might be quite soon given the new CX-1 seems ot fulfill a similar niche) as I had planned on using the frame for a good few years yet but am not certain that the current seatpost will last that long.
I too would like a C50, as they're 'real' Colnagos - and you can put any seatpost in them! But, now that I have owned one Colnago (ambition since early racing days fulfilled) I'll probably go for something different in the future. I'm not convinced they're that much better than other bikes - unlike in the past when I was near certain that Colnagos underwent some kind of mythical manufacturing process that made them far superior to anything else.0 -
That's the power of marketing for you. Have to say though I am looking forward to seeing if they bring out the EPS, that does look nice.
The C50 seems a bit old hat now.0 -
Lysander wrote:I bought a Ciocc Challenger from Mike about 7 years ago. I got the feeling then he is not a bloke to be messed with. But for really terrible customer service you should try Sigma Sport on Kingston. Its co owned by a guy called Ian who use to be an estate agent and it shows it really does.
Not IME - great shop, great staff - very helpful and they really know their onions.- 2023 Vielo V+1
- 2022 Canyon Aeroad CFR
- 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX
- Strava
- On the Strand
- Crown Stables
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totally bizarre that someone would not stock helmets because of the high mark-up but has no qualms about selling colnago frames made in taiwan ...
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My experience with Maestro was pretty poor as well. I had £5000 to spend on a bike. I was initially leaning towards a C50, but I wanted to maker sure of all aspects first. Everything was going welll until I enquired as to whether the frames were painted in Italy, or, as I have read elswhere, Benelux. Never got a reply back. Might have been a touchy subject, but one that probably wouldn't have altered my purchasing decision.0
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I've known Mike for a number of years, as well as about a further 5 or 6 club mates who ride Colnagos and can vouch for his straightforward, no-nonsense approach. If you want to kick tyres, then don't bother - Mike's a 1-man band and has grown tired of dreamers who try and play him off regarding prices. I'm currently looking at a CLX frame and would consider going to Mike no question, rather than those premium-price box-shifters called Windwave or Madison before them who's idea of 'warranty' service is unanswered calls and a long wait. Mike probably sells more Colnagos than any other UK dealers - he sources them via the Benelux Distributor who paints them to the same factory specs - he can also do specials and custom finishes too - which you can't get from the 'official' distributor. If it wasn't for guys like Mike, you'd be paying an even bigger premium for UK prices - so whether you like him or not, be grateful that he's probably saving you £££ in the process.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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Goes like this.
Actually it doesn't....... I've decided to delete my post as it's not fair on Mike.Paul0
