My Fault??

hothead

Riding into work today on a main road I hit a car turning a corner. Now this was a car turning from a main road to a side road. I was on the main road in the cycle lane and was doing 25 mph. This stretch of the main road is straight so not as if I was hidden. As I hit her we both were in shock. I dusted myself down, checked the bike (Seemed o.k??) checked her car (Again no probs) and I said sorry and went on my way.

Was this my fault or is it a case of the driver should have been looking for me?? Also I take it cycle lanes have no speed limit (Apart from the road speed?)

Confused and sore. :oops:

CrookedCucumber

Well, one of the reasons that cyclists often cite for not using cycle lanes is that drivers don't see them. Drivers particularly don't see them at high (for a bike) speeds.

The same sort of thing happened to me on a motorcycle, whilst riding (legally) in a bus lane. A car turned left across my path and just drove straight into the side of it. The insurance companies decided between themselves that the driver had been at fault. I was driving at a perfectly legal speed in a perfectly legal part of the road, just as you, I think, were. So I had the price of a new bike from the driver's insurers.

But who wants to be the rightest man in the graveyard? You have to be _exceptionally_ careful about riding a bike (or motorcycle) to the left of cars at anything beyond walking pace.

drenkrom

Just as a driver is responsible for looking for pedestrians before turning, he is responsible to check the bike path is free before turning onto it. At least here in Canada, that situation is very clearly cut and it's the driver's fault. A few friends have had that situation happen and the driver's insurance company ended up paying for broken metal and carbon. Your speed has no impact on the designation of fault, either. Whatever your speed, you are there, so the driver must let you pass.

I was about to correct CrookedCucumber to say it's riding on the right of cars that's suicidal... oops...

fluff.

hothead wrote:

Riding into work today on a main road I hit a car turning a corner. Now this was a car turning from a main road to a side road. I was on the main road in the cycle lane and was doing 25 mph. This stretch of the main road is straight so not as if I was hidden. As I hit her we both were in shock. I dusted myself down, checked the bike (Seemed o.k??) checked her car (Again no probs) and I said sorry and went on my way.

Was this my fault or is it a case of the driver should have been looking for me?? Also I take it cycle lanes have no speed limit (Apart from the road speed?)

Sounds like absolutely the drivers fault unless you were in the process of undertaking the car? If not the driver must of overtaken you, then immediately left hooked you as I read it (thinking the cycle path was of the on-road variety). It's quite common that cars try and do this, the driver sees a bike thinks they can only go 5mph or something, and tries to sneak in a crafty overtake/ left turn to try and save himself 5 second of his oh so precious time.

There are no speed limits for bikes in general, I did read somewhere (on this forum) that the ped/shared type of cyclepath isn't really meant for people doing over 15mph though.

madturkey

If the car overtook then pulled in front then they are definitely at fault!

I would say one of the key questions is whether the car was indicating and you were undertaking it... Still the car drivers fault ultimately - they have to make sure it's clear to move into where they're going, but undertaking (even in a cycle lane) a car that is indicating to turn across you is not a good idea.

Even using a cycle lane I would be mighty careful about undertaking at any remotely decent pace. As read in Cycling+ a few issues ago - "Undertakers go to the undertaker".

Travelling at 25mph I'd be in the main flow of traffic. If I could keep that speed up for more than a short burst.

will3

I think you were perfectly right, but being dead and right is no fun.
I was hit in similar circumstances (though I wasn't doing 25!) when a car on my side of the road flashed a car coming the other way to turn accross. Said car never checked the cycle lane (athough she would have known it was there) my front wheel stopped when it hit the car, my rear wheel stopped after the frame had finished folding and I took a trip over her bonnet (oo er).
Her insurance coughed up after a bit of arguing.

giant_man

What the hell are you doing apologising to the car driver for? You were in the right and it was your right of way, not theirs.

carlstone

Don't know about the legal situation but travelling at 25mph next to a ton of metal while passing a junction is nuts IMHO. If you are travelling at 25mph get in the middle of the lane and let the metal boxes overtake you. You will get some idiots tailgating or remonstrating with you, just pull to the side and let them past with a wave. You were lucky this time but if a car hits you you may die and as been said being in the right and dead is no fun. God help us if cycle lanes become compulsary.

Carl.

Rich Hcp

I think it would be called a 50-50

The driver has to be aware of the cyclist, as the cyclist has to be aware of the traffic.

If you were overtaken before the turn then, you should have been seen.

If you were undertaking the traffic, then there are massive blind spots from the motorised stuff and you have to assume that they won't see you.

At least you were ok and ther driver will 'think bike' next time

geoff_ss

If the cycle lane was a marked off section of the main road and the car overtook you then turned left across your path then the fault is 90% the motorist's. You could argue that you were slightly at fault for not appreciating how stupid the driver was going to be.

In most circumstances I refuse to use separate cycle tracks that don't have the same priority as the road they're following as they do in Holland (that takes a bit of getting used to when you first experience it). We should appreciate that cycle tracks are designed by people whose main objective is not to help cyclists but to get them (us) out of the way of cars so they can ignore us as far as possible.

Geoff

Garry H

I think the only way you would be partially responsible, is if you were undertaking the car after it had signalled and started to turn left. That would be quite stupid as well.

Bikerbaboon

I have been taken out 3 times on my motorbike by drivers. Every time its was due to them not looking b4 moving

2 were when a car was pulling out of a side road in to the main road i was doign about 25mph and 10 yards from the junction then decide to go for it.

1 was then i was stationary waiting at a roundabout and a driver behind me faied to see the 35 tonne truk doing the right turn on hte roundabout that i was waiting on.


what i have learned the hard way. Every one traveling on the road is blind and trying to kill you.

and the police will do nothing about any of this poor driving even though at any crash i could have died as they can not do and easy fixed penalty notice and fine automaticaly from a camera. and would have to sepend even more police time filling out paperwork.

This may also sound nasty but people do what they can get away with on the roads not follow the highway code, thats RLJ undertaking on bikes right through to using the wrong lane at roundabouts. its going to stay like that untill the roads are policed for the quality of the driving not just the speed.

Sorry about the semi rant but as the smallest lightest user of the of the raod we have to use our judgement and reactions to keep safe as i would have to think of the extra weight i would have to lug about to have abs and airbags on my bike :P


p.s. please note that non of this rant is aimed at any of the other posters just me being a grumpy git after having a buss tail gateing me down a 3 lane road with 2 clear lanes for him to over take.

Steve_F

I had one very similar, travelling on the outside of stationary traffic (as a bus was blocking the cycle lane) and a van coming out between cars from a side street to turn right. We never saw each other until I went over his bonnet. I apologised as did he and both got out of there before details were swapped (no real damage to either vehicle).

Sounds like your one was more clear cut as the drivers fault but if she indicated I would've expected to spot what she was doing myself.

FSR_XC

Was the cycle lane clearly marked across the road?

Was there a 'give way' marking on the cycle lane?

meanwhile

Everything depends on how far ahead the driver was and visibility. If she turned into you from the side, its her fault. If she turned and you didn't have sufficient braking distance and she should have been able to see you, its her fault. But if she looked as well as she could have done and you flew around a bend after she was committed to the maneuver, what could she have done?

If you want to protect yourself against the same thing happening again - which is what really matters - then the following may be relevant. Don't feel guilty because you weren't doing them - you shouldn't need to morally - but select the ones you think are useful survival techniques:

- 25 mph sounds like "going for it" speed. Often when people are maxed out their observation drops. They have less time to see; are in a worse position, probably on the drops in your case; the brain is preoccupied balancing the bike, and intense cardio effort might be taking a toll on alertness. Personally I'd never max out either speed or acceleration on a busy road - my first priorities are always observing and being ready to turn out of the way or brake.

- Braking distance goes with the square of speed; braking distance from 25 is about 50% more than from 20.

- Proper technique for emergency stops (most people aren't aggressive enough with the front brake, because they don't know how to avoid coming over the handlebars) http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

- Read "How not to get hit on a bike"; the most common accident scenarios and how to avoid them http://bicyclesafe.com/

- Wear a yellow top or something similar. It doesn't guarantee you'll be seen, but it helps.

- Practice emergency turns using deliberate countersteer and run grippy tyres.

- As suggested, you might be safer riding on the road in "high" position at that speed - but that's highly dependent on exact conditions.

If you do all of these things, and plan and rehearse your response to each scenario, you can make it virtually impossible for a driver to hit you the way this one did, even if they turn while you're alongside. (Long post even for me, but my first could-have-killed-me accident was one of these! Oh, well, back to swearing at Microsoft...)

simon johnson

It could seem out of place or a bit over the top, but even if everything seemed OK, I would still have got the Driver's details and those of any witnesses. Although this can be easy to forget after going through such a trauma (I'm trying to hard-wire an auto reaction into my head for such instances), it will be the only thing on your side should a some post-accident problem come up, like a big crack in your head/fork that wasn't apparent at the time.

Well, I hope that you and your bike are OK -these days it seems like a war out there on the roads everytime I go out cycling.

jedster

I think the driver was mostly at fault in law but that your road sense/positioning let you down.

I think undertaking at speed through a junction is very hazardous - drivers are not good at checking their nearside. This is still true even if you are in a cycle lane. Personally I'd slow down or move to the outside through the junction.

Good cyclecraft is about being assertive and defensive so that you don't have to rely on drivers doing the right thing.

J

jedster

I think the driver was mostly at fault in law but that your road sense/positioning let you down.

I think undertaking at speed through a junction is very hazardous - drivers are not good at checking their nearside. This is still true even if you are in a cycle lane. Personally I'd slow down or move to the outside through the junction.

Good cyclecraft is about being assertive and defensive so that you don't have to rely on drivers doing the right thing.

J

hodsgod

Garry H wrote:

I think the only way you would be partially responsible, is if you were undertaking the car after it had signalled and started to turn left. That would be quite stupid as well.

I agree 100%, when ever we are undertaking we must be very careful, and I would argue we do not have right of way to undertake a car turning left. It is safer on all people to slow down, and gurantee we are able to cycle again the next day.

JesseD

Funnily enough I work in motor claims liability would depend on a few more facts; was the car in stationary/slow moving traffic and just decided to turn left or did she overtake you then turn left? You do however have the right to undertake slow moving or stationary traffic in a designated cycle lane.

Realistically it would probabkly go 80/20 in your favour if it reached court if you admitted to doing 25mph in slow moving traffic as you should be riding/travelling at a reasonable and appropriate speed for the road conditions, however speed is hard to prove so if you were less than honest you could just say you were travelling at say 10-15mph and the car just turned accross your path (as long as there were no witnesses).

The main thing here is that you and the bike are ok.

Cheers JD

Steve_F

simon johnson wrote:

It could seem out of place or a bit over the top, but even if everything seemed OK, I would still have got the Driver's details and those of any witnesses. Although this can be easy to forget after going through such a trauma (I'm trying to hard-wire an auto reaction into my head for such instances), it will be the only thing on your side should a some post-accident problem come up, like a big crack in your head/fork that wasn't apparent at the time.

Well, I hope that you and your bike are OK -these days it seems like a war out there on the roads everytime I go out cycling.

Flip side of that is if the driver spots something that "wasn't there before" if they have your details they can find you too.