Policing Priorities

spen666

I saw yesterday as I cycled into work a "bendy bus" at a bus stiop with around a dozen police officers and ticket collectors/ revenue protection staff there. This is not an uncommon occurrance.

i do wonder about the deployment of so many police officers for a number of reasons: -

1) The purpose of the checks is to prevent revenue loss bya PRIVATELY owned bus company - should police be enforcing the "debts" owed to a private company? Will they come around and assist any other firm chase up its outstanding invoices?

2) The number of police seems high- 12 police when there are maybe upto 100 people on the bus. Imagine the outcry if football matches were patrolled by as many poolice per head of specators - eg at old trafford on a saturday there would need to be 9000 police officers at public expense - the public would not stand for such costs

3) Whilst helping the private company boost its income, the same officers are unable to be dealing with major crimes - eg burglaries/ robberies/ stabbings etc OR alternatively the bad driving seen by us al on the roads

flattythehurdler

I agree entirely for once. The police should not be policing a privately run company. They seem to do little nowadays without serious back up, which may be a reflection of society, but the government seem happy to let unarmed, relatively untrained community support officers bear the brunt of neighbourhood policing which would suggest that they don't think it is that dangerous.
I personally would stop allowing police retirement until the age of 60, and seriously increase police numbers. It doesn't seem fair to community support officers to put them in positions of frontline "policing", with few powers to back them up.

Parkey

spen666 wrote:

1) The purpose of the checks is to prevent revenue loss bya PRIVATELY owned bus company - should police be enforcing the "debts" owed to a private company? Will they come around and assist any other firm chase up its outstanding invoices?

I thought that fares were paid to TfL, who then pay the private operators to provide the service? Therefore as losses go to the taxpayer surely it's in the public interest to see that fares are paid.

British Transport Police do seem to have a lot of time on their hands. A few months ago I got approached by a beaming and quite attractive young lady as I was leaving a tube station. My thoughts of "do I know this girl?" and "I hope I do" were cut short when she showed me her badge and asked to see my ticket - the one that I'd just used to get through the ticket barrier about 2 seconds before. Damn. Knew it was too good to be true.

Note to my girlfriend - just kidding.

Squaggles

A dozen police officers to check if people have got bus tickets ?

richardast

Spen
From memory, I'm sure I've seen you say that you cycle between the city and East London. If so, the bendy bus in question was almost certainly the number 25.
The 25, which travels from the city to Ilford, has a reputation for being a mobile hotspot for robberies, pickpockets, sexual assaults and other random acts of violence.

What you witnessed may well have been a joint operation between police and other agencies to tackle the problems. People who commit the aforementioned offences regularly carry drugs or weapons. A dozen police officers to assess and deal with a bendy bus containing 140 people is not excessive at all if a few need searching and a couple get arrested. And once they've done one bus, another is along a minute or 2 later.
Suppose they deal with just 10 buses in their shift - that puts the officer/passenger ratio down to 1:116.
Halve the number of police and the innocents on board would all be delayed for at least twice as long.

Of course, a couple of hours into the operation and a few arrests later there may only be a couple of officers left while their colleagues are dealing with prisoners back at the station.

There is also the possibility that the gaggle of PCs are all new probationary officers with a couple of instructors getting them used to dealing with large groups of people .

Either way, there is likely to be a bigger picture that you don't see as you cycle past.

Incidentally, football clubs have to pay for any policing that takes place in their stadia.

spen666

richardast wrote:

Spen
From memory, I'm sure I've seen you say that you cycle between the city and East London. If so, the bendy bus in question was almost certainly the number 25.

you are correct re my route.

I cannot say the bus was the 25, but I do follow the route of that bus, so it may be the 25

The 25, which travels from the city to Ilford, has a reputation for being a mobile hotspot for robberies, pickpockets, sexual assaults and other random acts of violence.

I was not aware of that- but then again I very rarely use a bus at all- and never the 25

What you witnessed may well have been a joint operation between police and other agencies to tackle the problems. People who commit the aforementioned offences regularly carry drugs or weapons. A dozen police officers to assess and deal with a bendy bus containing 140 people is not excessive at all if a few need searching and a couple get arrested. And once they've done one bus, another is along a minute or 2 later.
Suppose they deal with just 10 buses in their shift - that puts the officer/passenger ratio down to 1:116.

It is however still an incredibly high number of police per passenger when you compare it to say a football match or a town centre on a Saturday night. If it needed 1 police officer per 116 fans at old trafford on a Saturday- that would be 650 officers on dutyat every game.. The public would not stand for that. Football would not be allowed to continue if it needed that many police at each game. Are we really saying bus travel is THAT dangerous?

Halve the number of police and the innocents on board would all be delayed for at least twice as long.

Of course, a couple of hours into the operation and a few arrests later there may only be a couple of officers left while their colleagues are dealing with prisoners back at the station.

There is also the possibility that the gaggle of PCs are all new probationary officers with a couple of instructors getting them used to dealing with large groups of people .

Either way, there is likely to be a bigger picture that you don't see as you cycle past.

Incidentally, football clubs have to pay for any policing that takes place in their stadia.

do the bus company then pay for the policing on their buses?

richardast

In your original post you suggested that the 12 officers would be better employed dealing with burglaries, robberies, stabbings etc. As I have pointed out, they probably were involved in preventing robberies, stabbings etc.

spen666 wrote:

It is however still an incredibly high number of police per passenger when you compare it to say a football match or a town centre on a Saturday night. If it needed 1 police officer per 116 fans at old trafford on a Saturday- that would be 650 officers on dutyat every game. The public would not stand for that. Football would not be allowed to continue if it needed that many police at each game. Are we really saying bus travel is THAT dangerous?

About 400 officers is normal for a Premier League match and they are on duty with the intention of keeping the peace. The intention of your bus operation was probably to arrest criminals rather than just keeping the peace. If 11 of the coppers at the match make arrests there are still 389 dealing with the match. If that happens on the bus operation then there's just 1 left.

spen666 wrote:

do the bus company then pay for the policing on their buses?

Probably not. But hundreds of thousands of people use public transport every day. They are tax-payers, have a right to have protection from crime and are probably pleased to see police on their buses.

Gr.uB

Perhaps they were doing a knife check as per the new control strategy in London Policing?

spen666

richardast wrote:

....
About 400 officers is normal for a Premier League match and they are on duty with the intention of keeping the peace. The intention of your bus operation was probably to arrest criminals rather than just keeping the peace. If 11 of the coppers at the match make arrests there are still 389 dealing with the match. If that happens on the bus operation then there's just 1 left.
...

400 officers per Premiership Match???????????????????????????????/




More like about 40

11 officers making arrests?


The average number of arrests per Premiersghip game is far far less than that

richardast

400 is not unusual for games between the bigger teams in London. A smaller game where trouble might be expected, for example, Millwall v Cardiff City, would not be far off that figure even though a quarter the number of spectators would be attending.

I never said that 11 was the average number of arrests for a match. It would not, however be particularly unusual.
I was pointing out that an 8 hour police operation intended to arrest criminals and being run with other agencies would be doomed before it began if it had less than 12 officers. The reason being that if there are a few arrests early on, then everyone else has to stop because they've run out of coppers.

Rocket science it is not, fortunately.

spen666

deleted as duplicitous

spen666

richardast wrote:

400 is not unusual for games between the bigger teams in London. ....

Oh dear Richard, you seem to be slightly undermined by the Metropolitan police Authority

68 officers are deployed at Chelsea FC for a category A game

now bearing in mind that Category A games are the ones with the lowest risk of trouble, it seems a little way short of 400 officers


The report quotes a cost of £15,300for these games. For the higher risk Cat C games, the cost increases to £28,000.

Now assuming the increase relates solely to additional officers, this suggests that at the highest risk games there are (28,000/15,300)*68 officers on duty ie a total of 124 police officers. Also bear in mind Chelsea are seen as a far greater risk than say Bolton, Wigan, Fulham etc

to be fair, the costs at Tottenham are higher
Cat A = £22,000 = approx 97 police
Cat C = £40,750 = approx 181 police

So even at this club with a serious hooligan element and regular trouble we find often 1/4 of the number of police you claim and even at the highest risk matches less than 1/2 the number you claim are regularly present.

Whoops= - but hey, don't let truth affect the issue

Met police Report

Big Red S

Out of interest, what makes you think the two (searching a bus and policing a football match) are comparable?

richardast

http://www.met.police.uk/publicorder/football.htm

How many police are used at football matches and who pays for them ?
The number of officers employed at a football match depends on available intelligence on crowd size and potential for disorder, together with the safety aspect for each game This can range from around 400 officers for a large Premier League fixture with a high potential for disorder to under 30 officers for a second or third division fixture with a low potential for disorder. Mounted units and dogs are not normally used at this type of game. Each club pays for the use of police inside the ground under a Special Services Agreement. There used to be an agreement that clubs only paid a percentage of the cost. However, over recent years, clubs have had to bear more of the full cost of policing. This has been a significant factor in many clubs employing stewards for general duties, which has reduced the budget overheads. A Premier League club such as Arsenal will pay about £350,000 per year for policing. The number of police, however, varies from club to club.

This is from the practitioners rather than a 5 year old, out of date report which, I suspect, is quoting the figures for which they can charge the football clubs (ie.the officers inside the stadium for the duration of the match) rather than the total involved in the whole operation.

Incidentally, you are a smug, patronising arse who is not always right.

spen666

richardast wrote:

http://www.met.police.uk/publicorder/football.htm

How many police are used at football matches and who pays for them ?
The number of officers employed at a football match depends on available intelligence on crowd size and potential for disorder, together with the safety aspect for each game This can range from around 400 officers for a large Premier League fixture with a high potential for disorder to under 30 officers for a second or third division fixture with a low potential for disorder. Mounted units and dogs are not normally used at this type of game. Each club pays for the use of police inside the ground under a Special Services Agreement. There used to be an agreement that clubs only paid a percentage of the cost. However, over recent years, clubs have had to bear more of the full cost of policing. This has been a significant factor in many clubs employing stewards for general duties, which has reduced the budget overheads. A Premier League club such as Arsenal will pay about £350,000 per year for policing. The number of police, however, varies from club to club.

This is from the practitioners rather than a 5 year old, out of date report which, I suspect, is quoting the figures for which they can charge the football clubs (ie.the officers inside the stadium for the duration of the match) rather than the total involved in the whole operation.



Incidentally, you are a smug, patronising ars* who is not always right.

This can range from 400

Is different from saying 400 officers is not unusual

400 officers is highly exceptional

By your version of counting every officer everywhere- not just those at the football match- the total number of officers involved re this bus incident will include every officer employed anywhere near the bus route

Ahh yes, an up to date report you quote- hmm lets see it is quoting the 1999-2000 season. That is clearly more up to date than the 2002 figures I quoted

Lets look at your information source ....

Wimbledon and Crystal Palace do not have home games on the same day because they share the same ground.

Interesting that- because when I was at MK Dons last season their ground was in Milton Keynes whilst AFC wimbledon played at Kingstonian's ground

Crystal Palace do not appear to play at either of these venues

iainment

Big Red S wrote:

Out of interest, what makes you think the two (searching a bus and policing a football match) are comparable?

Have you been on a bus in London recently? Mayhem.

richardast

I would bet any amount of money you like that the number of police involved in a Premier League match last season was more than in either of the other years mentioned. As the culture of risk management increases, so do the number of officers dealing with events.
If it was up to 400 officers 8 years ago it will be more now.

Popping back to the original post, if I may, the officers with the bus work either an 8, 10 or 12 hour shift.
Would you rather they were sitting drinking coffee during the rush hour or doing some work?
Of the tens of thousands of criminals who are arrested in London every year do you really think none of them commute to work? They aren't all unemployed drug-addicts.
There is more to policing than just making arrests. A lot of it is about prevention, visibility and reassurance for normal, law-abiding folk.

Unfortunately, whatever the police do, there will always be a certain type of smug arse with nothing better to do than criticize everything other people do and say.

grayo59

Memo to Spen:

It's an internet forum ...


:roll:

spen666

richardast wrote:

I would bet any amount of money you like that the number of police involved in a Premier League match last season was more than in either of the other years mentioned. As the culture of risk management increases, so do the number of officers dealing with events.
If it was up to 400 officers 8 years ago it will be more now.

I'll happily take your money off you.

The number of officers policing matches is falling rapidly indeed there matches now with no police at all present as clubs use stewards instead of paying for police

Popping back to the original post, if I may, the officers with the bus work either an 8, 10 or 12 hour shift.
Would you rather they were sitting drinking coffee during the rush hour or doing some work?
Of the tens of thousands of criminals who are arrested in London every year do you really think none of them commute to work? They aren't all unemployed drug-addicts.
There is more to policing than just making arrests. A lot of it is about prevention, visibility and reassurance for normal, law-abiding folk.

You are rght - the majority of criminals commute to work at rush hour on the bus. They are not in places like #Hackney, Brixton etc in the late nights and early hours.

Unfortunately, whatever the police do, there will always be a certain type of smug ars* with nothing better to do than criticize everything other people do and say.

So the police will come round and help me enforce the debts owed to me and that is a good use of their time? That is exactly what is being done here- the police are being used to assist private bus companies reduce debts owed to them

I personally thought the police were about crime prevention and keeping the peace, not a private debt collection service for selected private companies.

Perhaps the police can man the checkouts at Tesco to prevent people shoplifting

spen666

grayo59 wrote:

Memo to Spen:

It's an internet forum ...


:roll:

Really?

I always wondered what this was. I thought it was a tram

biondino

spen666 wrote:

when I was at MK Dons last season

Whatever everyone else says about you, this is the most offensively damning evidence imaginable!

biondino

Oh and Kingstonian play at AFC Wimbledon's ground, if we're obsessing with facts.

spen666

biondino wrote:

Oh and Kingstonian play at AFC Wimbledon's ground, if we're obsessing with facts.

Which was Kingstonian's ground first until they got into financial difficulties

Similar to what happened with Bristol Rugby club and Bristol rovers. Where Rovers were tennants of rugby, then bought ground when rugby got into financial difficulties

[& I think that I know that this coming season Rugby are playing at City's ground & rovers @ Cheltenham, but you get the drift....]

spen666

biondino wrote:

spen666 wrote:

when I was at MK Dons last season

Whatever everyone else says about you, this is the most offensively damning evidence imaginable!

I know & I left after about 55 minutes, but I had to go there to complete the 92 grounds. I left it till virtually my last ground ( couldn't celebrate the completion of the 92 at that place)
There was more atmosphere in Asda next door than there.

I've never been to a football game where the home "fans" all applauded the away team scoring. I wouldn't mind but it wasn't even a decent goal.
No passion, no atmosphere, no soul

drewfromrisca

Spen666 - they are dedicated transport police officers or even pcso's. that is their job to police the bus routes. What people don't understand is that there is no longer an average "Bobby on the Beat" anymore. Most officers are sperated into teams which specialise in a specific area. Those officers probably have a massive knowledge of various pickpockets, thieves, robbers, wanted offenders etc etc. They do a massive job of policing the transport system of cities and without them a lot of commuters journeys would be affected by a number of offenders. However I very much doubt that there was 12 on that bus as there are not that many on one shift. They could have been dealing with a sting operation targeting offenders on buses or even using it as transport to get to various postings around the area rather than drive there which people also moan at. Also don't you think that a cr*p load of bobby's on a bus is a good deterrent thus making it a crime prevention exercise?

As for officers working at football matches, it's usually done on their day off and no they usually don't get overtime but a day off back to fit in when shift strength allow it.

richardast - your totally right, there usually are a 'minority' who always moan at what police do. We will never win with everyone which is one of the many reasons that moral is so drastically low right now.