titanium bikes (enigma or sunday)

kafkathedog

I am saving for a new road bike and have been through many different options.
However as I am now thinking that the next road bike I buy will have to last I'm thinking titanium. Do titanium bikes last the distance?

I have been running a specialized allez (in festina colours) since 2001(and before that a 531 steel for many years) and although my allez is still a good bike I will probably retire that to the winter bike with the new purchase.

What I'm wanting to know is will a titanium bike such as enigma echo (or esprit) or sunday (mondays child) be as good or better at power transfer than an allez?
Does anyone have direct comparison between the two bikes?
Also does anyone know the relative built up weights of such bikes (built with chorus for example) as I have no idea what the frame and forks of my allez weigh.

I am not an all out speed freak but do like to put the power down now and again and would not like to lose speed up the climbs

I think given the price(and therefore the time it will have to last) I would be better getting a classic design and solid build over a carbon fibre fancy design that may not last the test of time in both resilience and design.

Of course nearer the time I have the money I will go and test ride but don't want to waste the time of the people at the shop until I am a little nearer to the money.

Just want to know roughly what I'm saving for.

What are your thoughts?

the flying hernia

Hi 'dog!

I've just got an Enigma Effusion - Ti butted frame with carbon seat stays - and am delighted with it.

I bought into the idea of Ti lasting longer too. The stays on my bike can be replaced if necessary. I don't know about longevity but the build quality is excellent and the bike climbs and descends brilliantly. I think there's a message from me to Enigma on their website saying as much.

I don't know the weight but mine is certainly light...maybe a smidge under 17lbs? that's with Chorus, compact, 13 - 26 and Euros wheels.

Ultimately, I wasn't that bothered about saving a few grams - I've strapped on a garmin and Fiziksaddle bag with tube and multiool etc, so i've already added half a pound. But i can say that over a recent 110k ride with 2300m of climbing it was a blast - swift, strong and comfortable. I hope that bodes well for surviving rubbish UK roads...

One last point in favour of Enigma - you deal with the bosses, Jim and Mark. They're good guys and, personally, I like the small company / service vibe.

Anyway - good luck.

cyclingvet

I endorse flying hernia's comments. I went down to Sussex to see Jim and Mark in January and would say that it is great to be able to deal with the boss of the company rather than some agent for Enigma at one of their outlets throughout the country (saddly nobody sells them around Leicester yet).

I wanted a frame that will last and for me TI has it. I've heard too many stories of cracked carbon frames that I 'm always paranoid about coming off my other carbon framed bike when I'm in a spotrtive. (crashes more likely)

Mark and Jim's service was exceptional and the build quality is excellent. I haven't weighed the complete bike since building it (Esprit) with SRAM stuff but I am no slower and probably faster than I am on my Colnago CLX. I completed my last sportive on the Enigma with a record time for me.- I don't think you should get too hung up on total weight as long as the bike is reasonably light and has a good paitr of light wheels on it. My Esprit gets up hills with ease and is a joy to ride.

simon johnson

I ride an Omega Helix which I've had for just over three years (I think), I use it for everything:

90 miles of (London) commuting per week- including Hackney, urghh.

60+miles at the weekend

going to the shop!!

and it performs flawlessly everytime.

I've done a few 100+ on it and have always been extremely comfortable to the end.


It's equipped with full Record and Mavic Open Pros on Record; timeless design too, I'm expecting it to last at least ten years.

Damn I love my bike- get one!

henderson_mk

if it helps any i started out on a spesh allez and eventually upgraded to a sunday silk road pro. the difference is amazing.

the silk road pro is a great ride, comfy over longer distances, but stiff when you put the boot in a bit. its light enough to climb well.

i'd recommend them. give greg at sunday a bell, he's a nice guy and good to deal with.

kafkathedog

Thanks everyone.

I would definitely like to support the small UK businesses(as I run one too) over the big makes like specialized.

I'll keep saving and join the TI brigade as soon as I can

Barrie_G

I've been pondering the same question since deciding that I want a full on road bike rather than the crosser that I bought earlier this year :roll: and I've decided to go for the Enigma Eclipse frame and build it up myself as a project through the winter months, I'm two thirds the way to the cost of the frame and in another couple of months (finances permitting ) I'll be placing my order

cyclingvet

My Enigma Esprit, fitted with SRAM Force crankset and rear mech, Rival Shifters and brakes, Mavic Ksyrium ES wheels, Reynolds Ouzo Pro Forks and seatpost , Deda Zero Stem and Deda Newton bars and a Prologo Choice gel saddle weighs in at 7.8kg. (17.16 llbs) That's light enough isn't it?

And it won't crack at the first fall/crash, and is UK designed.

kafkathedog

Yep that's pretty light.
I think my allez just squeezes under 10kg

Damn, gotta get some funds.

simon johnson

[

Damn, gotta get some funds.[/quote]

Their season sales seem to be quite reasonable and they offer PX.

I quite fancy their steel frame: 'Elite' - spent half-an-hour staring at it yesterday (on 't website)

pedylan

I guess you won't encounter many people who have or have had both makes. That means you'll get a range of individual opinions and still have to make your own mind up which company to go for.

I upgraded from an all Alu, Bianchi Via Nirone to a Sunday Silk Road. The bike itself (with Campag Centaur carbon, Solitude wheels and Ouzo Pro fork) is fantastic: light, comfortable, responsive and a huge step up from the Bianchi.

As a company Sunday provided a thorough fitting and testing service, great advice and good backup so I would recommend them without hesitation. You'll be dealing with the founder/owner in Greg if you do try them.

kafkathedog

Thanks for that. I didn't actually mean a direct comparison with a specialized allez, just a basic aluminium frame so that is a great help to know that the difference will be noticeable after spending so much money

Ta.

normanp

Just a word for Sunday: riding a Silk Road - feels light & smooth (after my old harsh ally framed bike). Great personal attention too.

neeb

I agree with many of the above comments, my Enigma Esprit is just brilliant, I couldn't be happier with it.

The total weight of the bike will have far more to do with the components and wheels than any inherent difference between carbon and titanium. At the most there's half a pound's difference in weight between the lightest Ti frames from Enigma and the lightest carbon frames (many carbon frames weigh more in fact). My Esprit with pedals is 16lbs on the dot. Similarly whether the bike feels racy or not will mostly be down to the geometry and tubing profiles. Mine certainly does!

My reasons for going with titanium were similar to yours. I wanted a really good bike and was in a position to afford it, but wanted it to last. My employment situation is volatile and I've no idea whether I'll be in a position to spend a 4 figure sum on a bike in 2, 5 or 10 years time, but having invested in Ti I know that if the worst comes to the worst I can just keep on using it.

Maybe in 10 years time the technology of carbon frames will have advanced to the point where they offer major performance benefits over a really good Ti frame, but I don't think we're at that stage yet (at least for those of us who aren't pro sprinters).

giant_man

neeb wrote:

The total weight of the bike will have far more to do with the components and wheels than any inherent difference between carbon and titanium. At the most there's half a pound's difference in weight between the lightest Ti frames from Enigma and the lightest carbon frames (many carbon frames weigh more in fact). My Esprit with pedals is 16lbs on the dot. Similarly whether the bike feels racy or not will mostly be down to the geometry and tubing profiles. Mine certainly does!

Oh I see so the carbon bikes weighing 13 or 14lbs is all down to the components eh? Hmm don't think so mate

neeb

Oh I see so the carbon bikes weighing 13 or 14lbs is all down to the components eh? Hmm don't think so mate

Not all, but mostly. Check the facts.

An Enigma Esprit frame can be 1.17 kilos.

1.17 kilos minus half a pound = 940g. OK, so there may be a few carbon frames that are a smigeon under 900g, but they are few and far between. With the same components the Enigma is only going to weigh approximately half a pound (certainly less than 3/4 of a pound) more.

angrynortherner

neeb wrote:

Oh I see so the carbon bikes weighing 13 or 14lbs is all down to the components eh? Hmm don't think so mate

Not all, but mostly. Check the facts.

An Enigma Esprit frame can be 1.17 kilos.

1.17 kilos minus half a pound = 940g. OK, so there may be a few carbon frames that are a smigeon under 900g, but they are few and far between. With the same components the Enigma is only going to weigh approximately half a pound (certainly less than 3/4 of a pound) more.

Enigma Esprit weighing 1,17kg? What size frame is that 48cm? I'd be interested to see how stiff that would be compared to say an R3-SL Cervelo.

neeb

I haven't weighed my frame on its own but I reckon it can't be much more than that given the weight of the complete bike - mine is about a 56cm. It's stiff enough for me (I'm about 62kg). The tubes are profiled and the downtube is oversized and quite beefy. Doubtless an R3 will be a little bit stiffer but maybe not as comfortable. Enigma also do a couple of frames with carbon rear stays that are a little heavier.

cougie

What about the XACD frames ?

And I'm not too sure about getting a bombproof Ti frame and then mating it with carbon seat stays. The join of two materials must always be the weakest point on the frame ?

neeb

And I'm not too sure about getting a bombproof Ti frame and then mating it with carbon seat stays. The join of two materials must always be the weakest point on the frame ?

Yeah, that was my reason for going with 100% Ti. That and the fact I don't really need to worry about damaging or scratching it. Enigma claim the carbon stays on the other models are solid though and can be replaced if necessary.

Van Nick

neeb wrote:

And I'm not too sure about getting a bombproof Ti frame and then mating it with carbon seat stays. The join of two materials must always be the weakest point on the frame ?

Yeah, that was my reason for going with 100% Ti. That and the fact I don't really need to worry about damaging or scratching it. Enigma claim the carbon stays on the other models are solid though and can be replaced if necessary.

What happens if Enigma suddenly stop making that model or redesign it so much that it becomes impossible to obtain replacement carbon seat / chain stays ?

A titanium bike with carbon seat / chain stays seems like a complete contradiction to me. The frame is only going to be as strong as the weakest link which is surely going to be the carbon fibre.

cougie

I had my 853 seat tube rust from the inside out on me - (a rag was stuck down the bottom from when it was resprayed) - the tube could have been replaced - but the cost of doing this meant that it wasnt really much more for a brand new frame.

I thought Ti gave a nice plush ride ? What does the carbon add to it ?

giant_man

neeb wrote:

Oh I see so the carbon bikes weighing 13 or 14lbs is all down to the components eh? Hmm don't think so mate

Not all, but mostly. Check the facts.

An Enigma Esprit frame can be 1.17 kilos.

1.17 kilos minus half a pound = 940g. OK, so there may be a few carbon frames that are a smigeon under 900g, but they are few and far between. With the same components the Enigma is only going to weigh approximately half a pound (certainly less than 3/4 of a pound) more.

You're comparing two different materials and one is ALWAYS going to come out lighter and stiffer than the other. There's no comparison here.

urban-commuter

When we're discussing the differences over a couple of grams between frames, it always reminds me that the 80 Kilo lump riding it, can undo his lightweight investment with an over-zealous trip to the pie shop!

neeb

You're comparing two different materials and one is ALWAYS going to come out lighter and stiffer than the other. There's no comparison here.

I don't agree if we are talking finished frames, it depends how it's used. Different materials as well as having different basic properties (such as stiffness and density) can be used in different ways (due to other properties). So Ti tubing can be made thinner than CF for example. Maybe that's going to make it less stiff, but if it can be oversized and profiled as well, perhaps that can wholly or partially compensate. The Litespeed Ghisallo (Ti) frame (Medium) is 770g! Now, I don't know how stiff it is (probably not very), and maybe the lightest possible CF frame will be stiffer than the lightest possible Ti frame, but the point is that these days you can make a Ti frame with excellent stiffness and ride qualities equal to good CF frames for only a slight weight penalty (comfortably less than 1lb) That amount of extra weight isn't going to be a big component of the total weight of the bike.

the flying hernia

Further to Urbanbiker's point...as a kid I had a frame by Les English (who also made stuff for Alf Engers - a very accomplished TTer). Having lost the argument about having bottle bosses and cable stops brased on (bit trad, our Les), I asked how much my frame weighed.

Without looking up Les pointed to a near-by hedge. "Piss into that. Your bike will weigh less".

He was right. Cheaper than 753 too...

Re. longevity of carbon - I recently did the GF Camapg with my Italian bro in law. His Fondriest is four years old and has had a tougher life than my mountainbike. He does a GF every few months, races ever weekend and trains on it in winter. Its chipped, scraped and biffed - and seemingly going strong.

I've got an Enigma Effusion with carbon stays and love it to bits. Pretty sure that, crashes aside, by the time these wear out, I will have too...