reasonably cheap tourer/commuter?

polarcheese

Me and a friend are going touring for about a week this summer, and I am hoping to buy a bike that can be riden comfortably for 60-100 miles a day without too much trouble.
I would also like to be able to use this bike for commuting purposes, and going cycling for sunday rides in the summer.
I like the look of the trek portland (http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2008/urban/portland/portland/) but I feel that at around £900 it is probably too expensive.
I have also looked at building up a cotic roadrat (http://www.cotic.co.uk/product/roadrat) with 105 drivetrain and mavic ksyrium wheels but again, it came to around £900, so is more than i would want to spend.
I would say that I do not want to spend more than £600. Overall, I am looking for a cheap, good quality bike that is reasonably light, comfortable, and tough, does anyone know if such a bike exists?
I also considerd some cyclocross bikes, but I was put off by the lack of panier rack mounts, does anyone know if those racks that mount to the seattube are any good?

thanks very much

david.

cooper.michael1

Cannondale Badboy, very much like the cotic, but cheaper £660

http://www.evanscycles.com/product.jsp?style=86894

You can get the 26inch V brake version for £450! for a cannondale! Ridgeback/kinesis/planet x are British and very good value for money also.

blorg

I have seen the Specialized Tricross with a standard rack- might be worth a look.

polarcheese

I was thinking something a bit more roady, with drop bars etc than the bad boy, which seems to me to be a mountain bike with slicks. I already have a mountain bike, so it perhaps does not appeal to me as much, also, does anyone know if it has rack mounts?

I looked at the tricross, but didn't know that it had rack mounts, I think I might go and have a look at that. It's still quite expensive (£700?), but that does look good.

blorg

For something a little different (and maybe better value) you could consider something like a Planet X Kaffenback (can set up with drops) or Uncle John (their cyclocross frame.) Alternatively a Surly Crosscheck or Surly Long-Haul Trucker. Getting it in under £600 might be tight, maybe might have to stretch to ~700 or so but would have a really nice, unique bike.

robbie the roadie

agree 100% with blorg

Stuck on a Giant

Just got back from 12 days touring on a Tricross and it was great. Rack and guard mounts all present and correct. I would say that 60-100 miles is a tough target if you're camping - fine if you just want to get from A to B, but if you want to see more than the tarmac in front of you...

On Sunday I did 150k on my road bike and it was so different - lighter, harsher, much more leant forward than the Tricross - both were fine but different. I'd also say that with the shorter top tube and higher front end, the Tricross lends itself to more relaxed riding, it's a much less aggresive riding position and it's harder to push hard for long periods than on my Litespeed.

alan_sherman

Ribble winer / audax bike? Light touring at least, not sure how heavy it would go.

polarcheese

that surly stuff looks pretty expensive, about £300 for the frames, so maybe not, although the kaffenback is looking nice, at the moment, I think that the tricross is looking good, as building anything up for yourself is always going to be expensive.

Saying that, I would quite like to be able to build up my own bike, and have somwthing that is "mine", that I made myself, and the kaffenback is £60 less than the roadrat frame and fork, I could probably build it for maybe just about £700, dunno, I think I will see if I can have a go on a tricross.

polarcheese

worked out a £700 build of a kaffenback, any thoughts on the kit?

wheels ---planet x model C wheelset £131.25 frame ---planet x kaffenback frame £156.45 crankset ---Shimano Tiagra Chainset Octalink Triple 4404 £39.99 fork ---planet x kaffenback fork £36.75 headset ---On-One Smoothie Light Headset £36.75 gear shifters--- Shimano Dura Ace Bar End Shifters 9 Speed 7700 £34.99 stem ---Easton EA50 Forged Stem - Road £29.99 pedals ---DMR V8 Grease Port £21.99 saddle ---charge spoon cro-mo £20.99 bottom bracket--- shimano lx £19.99 rear mech ---Shimano Tiagra Rear Derailleur 9 Speed 4500 £17.99 brakes ---shimano sora £17.99 bars ---easton ergo road bar £14.99 front mech--- Shimano Tiagra Front Derailleur Triple 9sp 4503 £14.99 cassette ---Shimano Tiagra Cassette 9 Speed HG50 £14.99 brake levers ---Shimano R400 Brake Levers £14.99 bars--- easton ergo road bar £14.99 seatpost--- titex x-wing pro 7075 £14.99 tubes ---IRC Road Tube x4 £11.96 chain ---Shimano HG53 Chain 9 Speed £7.99 brake cables--- shimano sora £6.99 bar tape ---easton cork bar tape £6.50 seat clamp ---Teardrop 29.8 Seatclamp £5.25 gear cable ---Shimano Dura Ace Gear Cable Set £4.99 rim tape ---Velox Rim Tape Cloth £2.00 total: £700.74

blorg

Sounds good if you were happy with the bar-end shifters rather than STIs as on the Tricross. You could of course always upgrade in the future.

Also make sure you are happy with the tyre and mudguard clearance- the Kaffenback goes to 700x32c I believe but I don't think it will do that if you are using Sora (e.g. caliper) brakes.

On the other hand caliper brakes will actually stop the bike which is more than cantis with aero road levers will do. If you aren't using STIs though you would have the option of getting levers that pull more cable and using V-brakes for more tyre clearance.

iga

Or you could save yourself a heap and go for the Edinburgh Bike Coop's Revolution Country Traveller for £399, got a good review on here recently. They do the disk braked Country Explorer for £599.

polarcheese

the reason for the bar end stuff is mainly cost, but also reliability, and ease of maintainance, I've never actually used any combined brake/shifter units, so Im not sure about them, but they are bloody expensive, at ~£100 for 105.

The whole road brake thing confuses me, I have previously riden mountain bikes where the
choice is cable discs or hydraulic discs. I don't really know what the difference between canti, calliper and v-brakes is, can anyone explain?

just had a look on the edinburgh bicycle coop website, and that cfross bike looks bloody good, only £350, whcih would leave me a fair bit of cash to stick some decent gears etc. on there, nad has full rack/mudguard mounts.

blorg

Traditional cantilever:


V-Brake (direct-pull cantilever):


Caliper (standard road bike brake):


As you can see from the picture, calipers don't tend to give you a lot of tyre/mudguard clearance, (main reason you can't fit traditional mudguards to most road bikes) although you can get long reach ones that extend this.

The key thing here is that the brakes are part of a system with the levers and as such you need to get brakes and levers that are compatible. Calipers have a different mechanical advantage to V-Brakes and the two are designed to work with levers that pull different amounts of cable. Traditional cantilevers have an adjustable mechanical advantage so you can sort of get them working with modern STI levers but they don't work very well. If you are going for non-integrated shifters you have the advantage that you can get special road brake levers (I believe Dia-Compe make a set) that pull the right amount of cable for V-brakes.

Having said all that the Edinburgh bike looks like a great deal- I'd go for the Country Explorer at £599. STI levers are very nice and few that have tried them want to go back. The Country Traveller is using cantilevers with STI levers which is honestly not a combination I would trust to stop the bike. Besides the generally upgraded components (Tiagra is a hell of a lot better than 2200), the discs on the other should work great.

Note the Country Traveller (£399) and Explorer (£599) come with racks and mudguards already.

JWSurrey

That Trek looks superb.
I ride a Condor Fratello - which I think start at around the 750 mark.
It's a comfy steel framed/carbon fork commuter with standard dual-pivot brakes - will take 28c tyres with guards (and rack on separate lugs). Worth a perusal of their website, as they'll stick you on their jig and make sure you get a good fitting bike.
They have several models available with flat bar, including out and out tourers that will take tractor tyres.

Another option is Kinesis - They make a nice winter trainer frame which will take a rack and guards - sorry, I can't remember the name of that specific frame though - aluminium.

I would say though, that if you are used to MTB disc/V-brakes, you'll find standard dual-pivot road brakes are not exactly powerful - especially when riding loaded or if you buy dual-pivot brakes with enough clearance for mudguards - the deep-drop seems to make them all less efficient - though Shimano dual-pivot deep drop brakes are reputedly the best there are.
Not that you won't stop, but your eyes may bulge a bit before you generate enough power to lock up the back wheel!

blorg

Standard road dual-pivot brake calipers are plenty strong, certainly as strong as V-brakes, nothing to worry about there. I could easily hurl myself over the handlebars if I wished and often have to ease off as I've lifted the back wheel. However such brakes will generally only allow a maximum clearance for 700x25c tyres.

The problem occurs when you want to run wide tyres and mudguards while using STI levers. The solutions here are generally less than optimal; I've only used calipers and traditional low-profile cantis myself with STI levers (having mini-Vs installed as we speak, which are meant to be better.) I suspect as JWSurrey says it is the same case with the deep drop calipers and STI levers, the levers are designed for a shallow drop caliper and this is the source of the problem.

The problem is all about using a lever for what it was not designed to do.

polarcheese

thanks a lot blorg, one more question, what are mini v brakes, do they fit road frames?

I not sure that an out and out tourer is what I want, although I will go touring, I will probably mainly use it for commuting and just general bike rides, so I don't want something so specific. That's why the cross bike (Here) looks so good, as it can tour if i want, but also goes down fireroad/rough roads etc without too much trouble, and will be lighter, and a bit more aggresive (I hope). If I got the cross, I would upgrade the groupset, and maybe wheels, as I would have £250 odd spare.

I might still build up a kaffenback, as it does look really nice, I do like steel, and it looks as though it will last forever.

blorg

I think that makes a lot of sense, I know myself due to work I am only touring for a few weeks out of the year if I am lucky and so while considering a traditional touring frame ended up going for something lighter and more agressive than a traditional touring bike myself, a Van Nicholas Amazon - for the other 50 weeks of the year. And it turned out great for touring too. This is pretty much your description, versatile cross/light touring frame but the only negative would be the price which is over your budget. Something that is relatively light, takes rack/mudguard, and clearance for big tyres should you want them. Sounds very like a cross bike to me.

Mini V brakes will not fit road frames, no. You need canti bosses on the rear stays and the fork. Braking is really one of the critical things you need to decide on when choosing a frame, you need to go canti/V-brake (with the bosses), caliper (with a centre mounting) or disc. Ultimately which you go for will depend largely on the tyre clearance you need- if you are never going to need wide tyres I definately recommend a frame that takes calipers.

Regarding groupset upgrades- maybe worth it if the shop will credit you for the stuff they take off, otherwise questionable, as you will often get the parts a fair bit cheaper as part of a whole bike than you could seperately. But no harm trying it out for a season and then considering an upgrade then, you may find you don't really need/want one. Wheel-wise I reckon for your use your #1 is going to be reliability so why not try the wheels out for a while and you may be happy with them

polarcheese

man, that van nocholas looks nice. I had a look at the bikeradar review of the van nicholas, and they had the ridgeback horizon recomended as an alternative (Here), whoch looks pretty good, only £500 and with a full sora groupset.
also looking at the kona jake (here), which looks pretty good for £650, and seems fairly similar to the tricross.
lots of choices now. I am defniately still tempted by building up a kaffenback, even though it could be twice as much, I could afford £700, but it is still a lot to spend on a bicycle. I do want something that will last, so relaibility and strength are key.
I think I will try out a tricross this weekend, and see how the sizing fits, and maybe make a descicion this weekend. I wont be buying the bike for a little while as I need to do some work and get the cash together, but in about a month/month and a half.

blorg

That Ridgeback looks like a cracking deal at £500, better value than the others I would reckon. Haven't looked at the full spec but it seems to be on the touring side with a Reynolds 725 frame and MTB gearing. 725 would make a great frame though, I think I'd go for it over alu personally. Tiagra levers too which are a benefit- easier to shift from the drops than Sora. It is also coming with the racks and mudguards already.

May be heavier than the cross bikes, hard to tell, but make sure you include the rack and mudguards if comparing!

jedster

If you are serious about a kaffenback or an uncle john then give planet-x a call - they'll be very helpful in putting a build together for you. It's generally best to go with whatever groupset they are doing a deal on.

I bought an uncle john a couple of years ago with full 105 - was under 800 - could be less now

polarcheese

jedster - the custom kaffenback build on the planet x site comes to £860 with the 105 groupset, and they don't do any cheaper than that. On top of that the idea of building something up myself does appeal, although I may change my mind when I'm halfway through and can't get all the bits to fit.

blorg - the link to the ridgeback site points to the wrong bike, i'm not sure why, but there we go, I was thinking of the horizon, not the voyager, although both do look good. The horizon is an alu frame with sora groupset. speaking of sora, what makes them harder to shift with than tiagra?

thanks.

blorg

It's to do with shifting from the drops- while all Shimano groups use the brake lever to shift in one direction, Sora uses a sort of thumb-lever to go in the other direction while the other Shimano groups use a secondary lever that goes down the brake lever.

It's a personal thing and some people find it just as easy to shift Sora using the thumb lever, even from the drops. It is certainly as easy from the hoods. Note all Campagnolo groups use a thumb lever and people shift that fine, this is just my personal recollection of having Sora and then subsequently getting 105.

Beeblebrox

polarcheese wrote:

thanks a lot blorg, one more question, what are mini v brakes, do they fit road frames?

I not sure that an out and out tourer is what I want, although I will go touring, I will probably mainly use it for commuting and just general bike rides, so I don't want something so specific. That's why the cross bike (Here) looks so good, as it can tour if i want, but also goes down fireroad/rough roads etc without too much trouble, and will be lighter, and a bit more aggresive (I hope). If I got the cross, I would upgrade the groupset, and maybe wheels, as I would have £250 odd spare.

I might still build up a kaffenback, as it does look really nice, I do like steel, and it looks as though it will last forever.

Did you ever go for the Revolution Cross? Seems to fit the bill for me too, but I'd be buying it blind and I'm no expert in tuning a bike, which puts me off a lot.

wiffachip

blorg wrote:

That Ridgeback looks like a cracking deal at £500, better value than the others I would reckon. Haven't looked at the full spec but it seems to be on the touring side with a Reynolds 725 frame and MTB gearing. 725 would make a great frame though, I think I'd go for it over alu personally. Tiagra levers too which are a benefit- easier to shift from the drops than Sora. It is also coming with the racks and mudguards already.

May be heavier than the cross bikes, hard to tell, but make sure you include the rack and mudguards if comparing!

the ridgeback horizon has an aluminium frame and sora gearing, the above link is to the panorama, which is £900

been thinking about the horizon myself, would love to here from someone that has one

meanwhile

Check what Edinburgh Bike Co-op do in their won Revolution range: these bikes are normally a lot cheaper than equivalent brand names. You should be able to get a decent tourer off them for £400-500 tops.

polarcheese

yeah, the ridgeback does look good, I still haven't bought anything, but I think that I will probably go for that, or maybe the kona jake, I'm not sure. Cross bikes are fairly obscure, and none of the shops I have tried out so far have had the sort of bike I want to buy in their shop so that I can try out sizing. This is reasonably important as I am really tall (6 foot 4) with really long legs, so I want to make sure that I fit on the bike that I am buying.

meagain

Nobody mention any of the Dawes range? If any of the '07 models still about then surely pretty good value (aside of course from the lack of snob value!).