Dauphine Stage 6 *spoiler*

iainf72

I know some of this has been mentioned in the Evans thread, but it should have a spoiler.

In answer to my anti-Astana friends question - Cadel got exactly what he deserved off Levi today. Why on earth would Levi ride with him? He had not much to gain because Cadel had screwed him yesterday - If they'd been a second apart then it would've been a different story.

Valverde looks a lot more solid than Evans to me. Well, at the moment.

blazing_saddles

When I saw spoiler, I thought your were referring to Levi, my pro-Astana friend. :roll:

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. At the end of the day, he's still in third and gained virtually nothing.
It also explains why people don't want LL riding on your wheel and why Evans didn't wait, yesterday.
If he had, he'd still be in third, after today and not second.

La Toussuire is a dull climb, in every sense.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

I know some of this has been mentioned in the Evans thread, but it should have a spoiler.

In answer to my anti-Astana friends question - Cadel got exactly what he deserved off Levi today. Why on earth would Levi ride with him? He had not much to gain because Cadel had screwed him yesterday - If they'd been a second apart then it would've been a different story.

Valverde looks a lot more solid than Evans to me. Well, at the moment.

Valv-Piti will weaken in week 3 of TDF...like last year..gapping Rasmusen on Galibier around day 10 and having bad days by by final week in pyrenees...think of the 05 valverde , the 03 Vuelta... Valverde....not the same rider IMO. I'll not pick Valv piti for PTP TDF GC in July. Evans attacked him today and had him under some pressure yesterday?

iainf72

Blazing Saddles wrote:

When I saw spoiler, I thought your were referring to Levi, my pro-Astana friend. :roll:

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. At the end of the day, he's still in third and gained virtually nothing.
It also explains why people don't want LL riding on your wheel and why Evans didn't wait, yesterday.
If he had, he'd still be in third, after today and not second.

I do think your judgement is being clouded by your dislike of the team. When I saw Evans attack I knew exactly what would happen. He gained nothing from attacking Levi yesterday, but Valverde gained a lot having to only keep an eye on Cadel.

Of course, I'm a spiteful person and if I was Levi and that Cadel had attacked me I'd make damn sure anyone but Cadel won.

:P

Jez mon

I'll re hash what i've said elsewhere, LL is an idiot. His riding today achieved nothing. Maybe he's just testing the old legs out for July....Oh wait of course he isn't, Cadel and Valv don't need to win this race. Levi otoh wants to make a statement about not inviting Astana to the tour, so he rides like that [slow clapping][/img]

blazing_saddles

Why anyone would assume, that when a rider of Leipheimer's stature begins to fall back, the main opposition would sit up and wait, absolutely. mystifies me. It has nothing to do with judgement, clouded or otherwise. It simply appears totally illogical.

Evans won't care much if he wins the DL or finishes in the top 3.
Leipheimer's season's aim is to win the DL.

So, who was the loser, today?

There's some pretty strong anti-sentiment being expressed over on the Evans thread.

I have read elsewhere, a scathing attack upon Leipheimer's complaining, yesterday, but choose not to post it here, for fear of being criticised, yet again, for being anti-Astana.
It appears I was right to do so.

iainf72

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Evans won't care much if he wins the DL or finishes in the top .

Balls - Why did he attack then? Because he wants to win.

At the end of the day, Levi's record in these kind of races is better than Cadels.

No one says they should've sat up and waited - And Cadel pushed the pace. Fine - My argument is that it wasn't the brightest thing in the world to do. I've got no problem with him doing it but he wasn't thinking clearly.

iainf72

Jez mon wrote:

I'll re hash what i've said elsewhere, LL is an idiot. His riding today achieved nothing. Maybe he's just testing the old legs out for July....Oh wait of course he isn't, Cadel and Valv don't need to win this race. Levi otoh wants to make a statement about not inviting Astana to the tour, so he rides like that [slow clapping][/img]

He rides like what? Won't work with a rider who attacked him yesterday? Or nicked back a few seconds? And possibly helped Valv.Piti put another couple of seconds in Evans?

blazing_saddles

So, if Cadel had not attacked or sat up, we would now have this GC.
1 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 24.14.58
2 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Astana 0.18
3 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0.41

Whereas, we actually have:-
1 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 24.14.58
2 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0.39
3 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Astana 1.24

I won't write any other comments that can be selectively "picked", but simply place a :? .

campagchris

http://www.gbcycles.co.uk/eshop.asp?wci ... +TEE-SHIRT

just for Ian :roll:

Jez mon

iainf72 wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

I'll re hash what i've said elsewhere, LL is an idiot. His riding today achieved nothing. Maybe he's just testing the old legs out for July....Oh wait of course he isn't, Cadel and Valv don't need to win this race. Levi otoh wants to make a statement about not inviting Astana to the tour, so he rides like that [slow clapping][/img]

He rides like what? Won't work with a rider who attacked him yesterday? Or nicked back a few seconds? And possibly helped Valv.Piti put another couple of seconds in Evans?

Oh didums, did someone attack you in a race yestarday. Well thats simply not on is it. Now as to why Evans attacked yestarday, well its natural to want to put time into other GC contenders, besides, Evans (IMO) isn't treating this as an important race, his eyes are on July.

LL's riding today looked like he was just trying to annoy Cadel, surely a better tactic would have been to work together hard, and then for LL to attack once they had actually achieved a gap.

iainf72

campagchris wrote:

http://www.gbcycles.co.uk/eshop.asp?wci=product&wce=TS08ASTA01&desc=2008+TEAM+ASTANA+TEE-SHIRT

just for Ian :roll:

As I've said before, I'm no fan of any team in particular, so thanks for that but no thanks. There is so much bile and hatred for Astana based on things other teams do all the time and they get ignored. I just find the whole concentrate on Astana thing tediuos and it avoids the big picture.

Many times criticism of Levi or Bertie seem based on nothing more than the team they ride for. Or in Levi's case the crime of being American :P

blazing_saddles

iainf72 wrote:

As I've said before, I'm no fan of any team in particular, so thanks for that but no thanks. There is so much bile and hatred for Astana based on things other teams do all the time and they get ignored. I just find the whole concentrate on Astana thing tediuos and it avoids the big picture.

Many times criticism of Levi or Bertie seem based on nothing more than the team they ride for. Or in Levi's case the crime of being American :P

To use your quote: Balls
You started this idea that Evans was wrong to attack, it seemed, because Leipheimer got dropped and made a couple of sour remarks in the media.
You may have expected your view to be supported, but, it seems, others can't fathom the logic.
Evans gets castigated for wheel sucking. He attacks, twice and again gets castigated. Why? Apparently, because it was Levi who was dropped. This now constitutes Astana hatred, not a racing tactic.
He attacked everybody yesterday.

I am still to see a valid reason why he should not have bothered to attack, but remain in third place. How would this aid him to overtake Vavlverde for the GC in today's final stage? It would have left LL in a strong position to win, however.

As for the bigger picture, I don't suppose that includes a reprieve for Riccardo Ricco, from you?

Tim Farr

Given the totally inadequate commentary from Mr Duffield, I am surprised that anyone can get worked up about this race simply because we were given virtually no info about the various contests in the race. He had me fuming - and I turned off in disgust. Let's all pray that for the TdeF, Eurosport, if they employ him at all, have Duffield under control in the studio and David Harmon doing the commentary.

iainf72

"Blazing wrote:

Evans gets castigated for wheel sucking. He attacks, twice and again gets castigated. Why? Apparently, because it was Levi who was dropped. This now constitutes Astana hatred, not a racing tactic.
He attacked everybody yesterday.

As for the bigger picture, I don't suppose that includes a reprieve for Riccardo Ricco, from you?

I'm not one for castigating Evans or calling him a wheel sucker. If he's riding on his limit and follows the wheels there is nothing wrong with that. I've been following this sport for long enough to know there are many different styles of racing

I have no problem with Cadel attacking. But when he said he attacked Levi I thought that was odd - If he'd said he'd attacked to try and get rid of Valverde and Levi got dropped that makes sense.

I wasn't specifically refering to your comments about the tactics (which are valid and I'm enjoying the debate) when I said about Astana hatred. It's just a general feeling.

What about Ricco?

blazing_saddles

Well, I still think he was attacking Valverde on the Joux Plane, after LL was dropped. We saw, last year, Cadel doesn't like these constant changes of pace. Slowing then sprinting is more up Valverde's street.
So, he went as hard as he could, for as long as he could. I don't think his intention was to tow the Spaniard, more to see his he'd crack.......he didn't and doesn't look as if he will.
He managed to get off the front and rode the same way yesterday.

I think the reason LL sat upon Cadel, was because he was concerned he could conceed further time, if he contributed against Valverde, then got attacked from behind.

I can't see how this assessment is Astana hatred, simply an interpretation.

Pricco?

iainf72

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Well, I still think he was attacking Valverde on the Joux Plane, after LL was dropped. We saw, last year, Cadel doesn't like these constant changes of pace. Slowing then sprinting is more up Valverde's street.

Pricco?

The Australian was very active towards the top of Joux-Plane but admitted he didn't think he'd be able to dethrone Valverde in Morzine. "I tried more to get some time onto Leipheimer," he commented. "I go one step at the time. I've tried to become second before thinking of getting first

So he was attacking Levi rather than Valv, non?

I'd agree he doesn't like changes in pace - Actually, Cadel and Levi are very similar in that respect with Cadel maybe being able to respond a bit better.

Ricco is a good bike rider but he's a dick. Thinking abou the top 3 in the DL, only Valverde is supposed to be a fairly pleasant guy.

Jez mon

OK so what if he was attacking LL, that's how bike racing works, why on earth should Cadel have waited for LL?

If Levi and Cadel had worked together, they would have put time into Valv and put themselves into a better place for todays stage, as it is, it's difficult to see anyone but Valv winning today.

By not working with Cadel, LL just makes himself look spiteful. All he's doing in reality is hurting himself, Cadel and Valv have bigger fish to fry.

blazing_saddles

I love the part of France that the race went through, today. A pity nobody thought the parcours offered sufficient opportunity to attack the GC on the final day.
Bit of a zzzzzzzfest. Still enjoyed it, though. Excellent, extended coverage on France 3.

iainf72

Ok - Who likes theories?

Perhaps LL was paying back Caisse d'Epargne yesterday from when Rodriguez took 3'rd on the 20th stage and made sure Ricco couldn't take any time bonuses?

micron

iain, I was in need of laughing today - that was in jest, right?

I am surprised at Leipheimer not being better prepared for D-L - without another objective for the summer, and with Bruyneel stating that he had really wanted to win the race with Contador to rub the Frenchies noses in it, you would have imagined Astana would have wanted to put on a show to let us all know what we'd be missing in the Tour and to reinforce the 'the winner won't be the real winner because Astana weren't there' myth.

It seems to be the pattern this season that the real interest is being generated in the mid mountain stages and the TTs and the bigger climbs are too attritional to be interesting.

Arkibal

micron wrote:

iain, I was in need of laughing today - that was in jest, right?

I am surprised at Leipheimer not being better prepared for D-L - without another objective for the summer, and with Bruyneel stating that he had really wanted to win the race with Contador to rub the Frenchies noses in it, you would have imagined Astana would have wanted to put on a show to let us all know what we'd be missing in the Tour and to reinforce the 'the winner won't be the real winner because Astana weren't there' myth.

It seems to be the pattern this season that the real interest is being generated in the mid mountain stages and the TTs and the bigger climbs are too attritional to be interesting.

Once again, micron, you are so wrong....
Dauphine was the major goal for the team UNTIL they got the Giro invitation!!!
Contador was supposed to drop out from the Giro after the first week, to win Dauphine, but since he had a chance of winning it, he wanted to continue, which he indeed did.
Dauphine is nothing compared to a GT, you are saying that Levi didn't prepare better for Dauphine just shows how stupid you are, sorry for being so straight.
You must have missed the fact that Levi just finished, and helped Contador to win the Giro... Duh.

Your dislike of this team is rising into a new level!

blazing_saddles

Arkibal wrote:

Once again, micron, you are so wrong....
Dauphine was the major goal for the team UNTIL they got the Giro invitation!!!
Contador was supposed to drop out from the Giro after the first week, to win Dauphine, but since he had a chance of winning it, he wanted to continue, which he indeed did.
Dauphine is nothing compared to a GT, you are saying that Levi didn't prepare better for Dauphine just shows how stupid you are, sorry for being so straight.
You must have missed the fact that Levi just finished, and helped Contador to win the Giro... Duh.

Your dislike of this team is rising into a new level!

For someone whole follows Astana's every move, you don't read much about what they have to say. Try to keep up.
No doubt I'll have the Astana hater finger wagged at me when I remind you that both Bruyneel and LL were still very keen to take the Dauphine, after winning the Giro.
LL said it was his main objective. JB would have preferred Contador to ride this race, rather than the Giro, in order to rub French noses in the ASO's no Tour decision.

Once again, I note you resort to personal insults.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/cgi/galle ... 6-levi.jpg
(just for you)

andyp

Arkibal wrote:

Once again, micron, you are so wrong....
Dauphine was the major goal for the team UNTIL they got the Giro invitation!!!
Contador was supposed to drop out from the Giro after the first week, to win Dauphine, but since he had a chance of winning it, he wanted to continue, which he indeed did.
Dauphine is nothing compared to a GT, you are saying that Levi didn't prepare better for Dauphine just shows how stupid you are, sorry for being so straight.
You must have missed the fact that Levi just finished, and helped Contador to win the Giro... Duh.

Your dislike of this team is rising into a new level!

Can we please have a little bit less of the personal insults? Discussions and arguments can be had without recourse to name calling and petty insults.

Jez mon

The point is Arkibal that LL had a chance of putting some time into the leader on stage 6, but would have had to work with Evans to do so, instead he decides not to work with someone who attacked him yestarday. Well, I'm sorry, but that just makes him look spiteful.

The actions bring to mind a certain loudmouth American. However, LL doesn't have the talent or the palmeres of this other American. There are also similarities to pRicco, but at least he was more entertaining.

DaveyL

Less of the personal insults? I take it that includes calling unidentified persons "fanboys", since it's clearly used in a pejorative sense...

Nice pic from pez, BS, but I'd prefer one from the final stage of the TdF last year. Maybe one with Big George at the front of the peloton, resplendent in his US champs jersey and sheltering the maillot jaune behind him - just like the good old days!

rhinsliff

Im australian and im not a particular fan of cadel but i think you have to respect him. In australia you dont really get this wheelsucker tag labelled at him. But ive recently started reading the international magazines (expensive but we have two magazines down here worth reading ones a bit crap and the others great but comes out quartely). I was a bit put off by th is wheelsucker biso to begin with but i can kind of see where it comes from. What i would say is this, prior to this year cadel has not had the team support every other GC contender usually gets. The focus is usually on robbie mcewen and whatever cadel does is good for the sponsor. He has improved every year he competes at the tour and the teams had to give him a go. Possibly why robbie is struggling a bit as well.

I do wonder though when he attacks jump on him for it. He has no loyalties to LL had LL has no loyalties to cadel. As far as cadel not being very attacking, well i prefer that to him launching massive attacks and everyone casting doubts over his performances, though some people seem to be able to do both go figure.

In the end cadels there to give his legs a run. He has attacked alot more this year and it will be intresting to see what happens this july even without astana. Lets hope we can have 3 weeks without somebody getting busted for doping.

micron

DaveyL if one chooses to identify as a 'fanboy' and take that term pejoratively, so be it, but it is hardly a personal insult in the same way as being named and called stupid.

Arkibal and I have a difference of opinion is all - though he could perhaps articulate it less personally, I admire his passion and defend his right to a different viewpoint.

I hope the Tour is more interesting than the D-L - it was a much better race last year, I think. I don't think Valv will last the three weeks and am hoping Cunego will win so we can all argue over who is the hot young talent - him or Contador