Thank you Ireland

spen666

I thank you from my democratic heart

Parkey

Yes. The EU may not be the most efficient mechanism ever invented, but it'll be much better if we all pour grit into the workings. Thankyou.

Squaggles

Exactly why we didn't have a referendum in this country . Politicians love to talk about democracy until the people vote the wrong way .

Parkey

Three problems with a referendum.

1) The public are often extremely badly informed about what they're voting on, especially a highly technical legal document.

2) Public attitude is influenced by media bias, especially from the Murdoch press, or otherwise the opportunity to give an unpopular government a kicking - this would certainly have happened in the UK.

3) It's very very easy for people to be negative about something and say no, but the same people never ever have any alternatives to suggest or anything positive to say. If these "pity party" people were responsible for national decisions on a daily basis nothing would ever get done.

I just feel the whole thing about a referendum is a load of rubbish. The lisbon treaty isn't all that important, it's just become a rally cry for gullible people who don't like the government.

LangerDan

A few things about todays vote here

1) The "Yes" campaign was spearheaded by the normal mix of the main political parties, farmers groups, business lobby groups etc - a fairly conventional pro-EU mix.

2) The "No"campaign was the most incredible alliance seen in modern Irish politics - pin-striped tax-dodgers standing shoulder to shoulder with soap-dodging crusties. People who will spend the other 364 days of the year tearing lumps out of each other got organised enough to mount a coherent opposition.

3) Much of the No platform was based on the (sucessful) sowing of doubt - "If you don't understand it, don't vote for it". Mind you, the lunatic fringe were out too, with allegations of God-less Masonic interference from Brussels in front-page newspaper ads. (Mind you, several of the "NO"-supporting MEPs didn't have a problem with our less-than-perfect understanding when seeking our votes last itme out)

4) Someone on the "Yes" side decided it would be a good thing to invite the French Foreign Minister to threaten the Irish with repercussions if we voted no - bad move. Foreign political dominance is something we thought we had left behind, The net result of his intervention was for several thousand Yes and Undecided (including my 72 year old mother) to vote "No"

5) There is also en element of an anti-government vote. a few months ago, it looked as if public dissatisfaction with Bertie Ahern would result in a massive No vote - Bertie went and some of the anti-Lisbon sentiment did dissipate

6) A series of protests by fishermen this week, partly due to the cost of oil but mainly at the way EU fishing legislation has destroyed the industry - all the "wrong" messages for the "Yes" campaign

richardjallen

To all those who wish to join the EU, why don't you just up and move there? You are already entitled to live and work so kindly don't subject others to that which they do not wish.

jpembroke

Richard, I hate to tell you this: we are already in the EU.

OffTheBackAdam

OK Parkey, so the public are far too thick to understand the great European Project are they?
As for your stance about the Lisbon Treaty not being important, upon what basis do you say that, or are will all too thick to understand that too?
The sad thing, is that the Irish No vote, will be completely ignored by those running this great gravy train.

nasahapley

richardjallen wrote:

To all those who wish to join the EU, why don't you just up and move there? You are already entitled to live and work so kindly don't subject others to that which they do not wish.

This is the funniest thing I've read on BR for ages; keep the razor-sharp insight coming!

jpembroke

I know, as a landscape gardener in Cheltenham I already do live and work in the EU.

top_bhoy

Parkey wrote:

Three problems with a referendum.

1) The public are often extremely badly informed about what they're voting on, especially a highly technical legal document.

2) Public attitude is influenced by media bias, especially from the Murdoch press, or otherwise the opportunity to give an unpopular government a kicking - this would certainly have happened in the UK.

3) It's very very easy for people to be negative about something and say no, but the same people never ever have any alternatives to suggest or anything positive to say. If these "pity party" people were responsible for national decisions on a daily basis nothing would ever get done.

I just feel the whole thing about a referendum is a load of rubbish. The lisbon treaty isn't all that important, it's just become a rally cry for gullible people who don't like the government.

Why bother with General elections - all your points could be easily applied to them also. It is up to politicians to get their point across coherently and bias people in favour of their argument.

As far as the 'Lisbon treaty isn't all that important', how do people know this? The politicians haven't tried to properly explain it and allay peoples fears, whether those fears are justified or not - they have simply assumed they know best.

richardjallen

jpembroke wrote:

Richard, I hate to tell you this: we are already in the EU.

Actually I did know that, bit too quick off the mark there :oops: . But do we have any choice in this? I understand we were to have a referendum until we were persuaded not to. Is there any involvement of the populous? And the idea that everyone is too thick to have the right opinion is the makings of a complete scam.

jpembroke

I quite like being in the EU. A simplistic attitude perhaps but Europe today is a wonderful place when compared to where it was 60 years ago.

richardjallen

jpembroke wrote:

I quite like being in the EU. A simplistic attitude perhaps but Europe today is a wonderful place when compared to where it was 60 years ago.

How has it changed? I mean following say WWII? Obviously prior to an including that the history of Europe is full of war - as is everywhere. Do you think the EU has had the effect of preventing that?

On the one hand I can see that one governing body is going to potentially create stability and have a great positive effect.

jpembroke

Yes, I do believe that the EU has achieved stability. I don't believe that the horrors of the first half of the 20th Century could happen now. If the Balkan states join the EU then it'll no doubt help improve things for them too.

Just need Russia to join and we'll be laughing

hmmmm

richardjallen

jpembroke wrote:

Yes, I do believe that the EU has achieved stability. I don't believe that the horrors of the first half of the 20th Century could happen now. If the Balkan states join the EU then it'll no doubt help improve things for them too.

Just need Russia to join and we'll be laughing

hmmmm

Well there would be less parties to be worried about. But what about the claims that once in we cannot leave do we have any control over ourselves? There is a lot of scaremongering over it but if the claims are true? What scenarios do the rules of the system play out to? And again the idea that people are too stupid to make the right decision so they cannot be allowed to is just wrong. Its a self fulfilling prophecy. Every dictator knows that knowledge is power and keeping knowledge to oneself will keep a person above others.

Would you go so far as the single currency? It faces a real test now. The last 10 years of prosperity through borrowing are over and I think its current strength is just a delay before the storm hits it.

Edit - Don't you think there was rather a lot of corruption in the USSR? The EU has its name tarnished with corruption already. I'm sure the Russians know how to thrive on corruption and the smaller states probably want to join to get under the EU wing after a spell on their own now that the USSR wing is no longer there.

Edit2 - If we look to the past horrors these do tend to be perpetrated by dictators. We have worked very hard for what democracy we have. Now does the EU preserve that or are the scaremongering claims true? I think its necessary to look beyond what maybe innocent times now and look at the system that is being constructed and if the rules could be abused and allow dictators to rise again.

jpembroke

"The last 10 years of prosperity through borrowing are over and I think its current strength is just a delay before the storm hits it" - That could be the £ you are talking about

Yes, I'd be up for a single currency. The British press were gleefully predicting a complete meltdown in the Eurozone when the Euro came out but it never happened. It's turning in to a strong, stable currency that has benefitted the member countries. It's certainly strong against the £ right now. And I'm fed up with the change I bring home every time I visit friends in Ireland.

As for dictators, I would have thought the likelihood of an authoritarian state arising in the EU is slim to impossible due to the checks and balances they have in place. Before the EU we had Hitler, Mussolini, Franco. They wreaked havoc on their own people and their economies. I certainly don't feel that threat coming from Brussels. I would rather have a directive on the length of a cucumber (soon to be abolished BTW) than gas ovens in Polish forests.

We could gain a lot from European neighbours. I find our isolationism embarrassing sometimes.

richardjallen

jpembroke wrote:

"The last 10 years of prosperity through borrowing are over and I think its current strength is just a delay before the storm hits it" - That could be the £ you are talking about

Yes, I'd be up for a single currency. The British press were gleefully predicting a complete meltdown in the Eurozone when the Euro came out but it never happened. It's turning in to a strong, stable currency that has benefitted the member countries. It's certainly strong against the £ right now. And I'm fed up with the change I bring home every time I visit friends in Ireland.

As for dictators, I would have thought the likelihood of an authoritarian state arising in the EU is slim to impossible due to the checks and balances they have in place. Before the EU we had Hitler, Mussolini, Franco. They wreaked havoc on their own people and their economies. I certainly don't feel that threat coming from Brussels. I would rather have a directive on the length of a cucumber (soon to be abolished BTW) than gas ovens in Polish forests.

We could gain a lot from European neighbours. I find our isolationism embarrassing sometimes.

I think we will see if the Eurozone is strong soon. I think the current exchange rates are more about the weakness of other currencies than the strength of the Euro.

What are the checks and balances in place? Didn't people in England think nothing as bad as WWI would ever take place before it did? If the economic climate is good then you can expect people to be well behaved. But climates can change and would expect people to sink to similar depths if it was bad enough. I think some nations have sunk fairly low already to preserve there positions. (Not EU nations BTW).

How much of the frightening claims that are made are true? Such as our legal system being changed. No more innocent until proven guilty, no more jury - maybe that's old news. Are these just things that could be enforced if necessary but would be waived until? Are we going to have the chance of that hanging over us?

Parkey

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

OK Parkey, so the public are far too thick to understand the great European Project are they?
As for your stance about the Lisbon Treaty not being important, upon what basis do you say that, or are will all too thick to understand that too?
The sad thing, is that the Irish No vote, will be completely ignored by those running this great gravy train.

Show me where I said people were thick? I stated misinformed and implied at collectively incredibly gullible. Never said thick.

Hurrah for the the right wing press soundbytes: "great European Project" and "great gravy train". Amazing the effect of such arguments on otherwise intelligent people of a certain mindset. All you need to do is imply to them that someone else is getting a free lunch at their expense and they're up in arms about anything you care to name. Doesn't matter if none of it's true, or if it's not the whole story, facts get in the way once the right-whingers are on the warpath.

jpembroke

richardjallen wrote:

What are the checks and balances in place?

"In order to join the European Union, a state needs to fulfill the economic and political conditions generally known as the Copenhagen criteria (after the Copenhagen summit in June 1993), which require a secular, democratic government, the rule of law, and its corresponding freedoms and institutions."

That's what I meant by checks and balances and that's why the likes of Turkey do not currently qualify. Macedonia and Croatia are current candidates to join the EU and will no doubt prosper like Poland and other Eastern European countries have (those plumbers are all going home now).

I fully believe that the EU is, on the whole, a positive force in the world and we live in a safer more stable world because of it.

OffTheBackAdam

jpembroke wrote:

richardjallen wrote:

What are the checks and balances in place?

"In order to join the European Union, a state needs to fulfill the economic and political conditions generally known as the Copenhagen criteria (after the Copenhagen summit in June 1993), which require a secular, democratic government, the rule of law, and its corresponding freedoms and institutions."

That's what I meant by checks and balances and that's why the likes of Turkey do not currently qualify. Macedonia and Croatia are current candidates to join the EU and will no doubt prosper like Poland and other Eastern European countries have (those plumbers are all going home now).

I fully believe that the EU is, on the whole, a positive force in the world and we live in a safer more stable world because of it.

These criteria are followed as and when it suits the major countries to do so. Neither Italy, Belgium nor Greece fulfilled the economic criteria to join the Euro http://fx.sauder.ubc.ca/euro/euro.html, it was fudged by saying that they were "working towards" or "converging with" them. (Of the 5 criteria laid down in the Maastrich Treaty, in 1997, only Luxembourg met all!)

As for the rule of law, the Lisbon Constitution's rules say that it has to be ratified by all 27 countries to become law. It's just been binned by the Irish, things aren't looking happy for it in Czechoslovakia either. The response of the euro-elite to this?
"After the leaders' dinner the President of the Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, in as crisp a form as I've seen him, hit back. He said that it was "completely inconceivable" that a government would sign and not move towards ratification. He said all governments had an "obligation" to carry on - they had signed up to the treaty, and "not for fun"."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/
Notice how Gordon Brown has done his all to deny the UK a vote on this.
We voted to join the "European Economic Community", we were told that this wouldn't have any effect on our rights or laws.
We firstly gave away control of our fisheries (Fishing rights weren't even mentioned in the Treaty of Rome, these were used as a bargaining chip by Heath) This has, I suggest, lead to the destruction of these fishing grounds by overfishing and the destruction of our fishing industry to boost those of the Spanish & French, for example.
The thoughts of Jean Monnet, one of the founders of the "EU" (Or the Coal & Steel Trades Confederation as it was then) in 1954.
"Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps each disguised as have an economic purpose but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.’

A few more quotes, just to let you all know how our European neighbours look at things.

‘Creating a single European state bound by one European Constitution is the decisive task of our time,’ German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer, The Daily Telegraph, 27 December 1998.

‘This Constitution is, in spite of all justified calls for further regulations, a milestone. Yes, it is more than that. The EU Constitution is the birth certificate of the United States of Europe. The Constitution is not the end point of integration, but the framework for - as it says in the preamble - an ever closer union,’ Hans Martin Bury, the German Minister for Europe, debate in the Bundestag, Die Welt, 25 February 2005.

‘For the first time, Europe has a shared Constitution. This pact is the point of no return. Europe is becoming an irreversible project, irrevocable after the ratification of this treaty. It is a new era for Europe, a new geography, a new history,’ French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin, Le Metro, 7th October 2004.

‘The Constitution is the capstone of a European Federal State.’ Guy Verhofstadt, Belgian Prime Minister, Financial Times, 21st June 2004.

‘Our constitution cannot be reduced to a mere treaty for co-operation between governments. Anyone who has not yet grasped this fact deserves to wear the dunce's cap,’ - Valéry Giscard, President of the EU Convention, speech in Aachen accepting the Charlemagne Prize for European integration, 29th May 2003.

‘A full-time president of the European Council would be the most powerful politician of Europe, but will not be elected by the people or be accountable to a democratic body meeting in public. How is this going to bring Europe closer to its citizens?’ Gijs de Vries - Dutch representative on the EU Convention.

‘Anyone in Britain who claims the constitution will not change things is trying to sweeten the pill for those who don't want to see a bigger role for Europe. The constitution is not just an intellectual exercise. It will quickly change people's lives,’ former Italian Prime Minister Lamberto Dini, The Sunday Telegraph, 1st June 2003.

So, what are the intentions of Europe's political elite?
"planning urgently to end the nation state. Everything outside this objective was heresy and had to be fought. This was in the spirit of Jean Monnet, the rejection of self and of history, of all common sense. European power was a variation, the code name for a counterweight to America that excited France alone for years and towards which the Constitution was supposed to offer a magical shortcut."
former French Foreign Minister Hubert Vedrine

Now, why did the Irish vote No and why is tis vote being ignored?

jpembroke

You win

Parkey

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

...A few more quotes, just to let you all know how our European neighbours look at things...

I don't claim to be any expert on the legal structure of the European Union but if those quotes are as representative or as in-context as your anti-climate change data I have a good measure of their inconsequentiality.

Beeblebrox

While I do agree the EU is a largely unrepresentative and obtuse institution, it does seem a shame that some points - such as being able to majority vote on a few areas would indeed help further practical integration - have been lost. A haphazard system of co-operation is good for no-one and is what we are currently lumbered with.

Political integration I do have issue with, and now 'they' are stuck with the impossible to resolve problem of grasp power back from smaller states (and why should we possibly support that?) that would allow the EU to further integrate politically. So, no to political integration but yes to integration on immigration/border control, some aspects of law, competition & business and for the Euro-zone the economy. A unified approach is - even for the most ardent anti-EU person - a partly desirable thing.

LangerDan

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

Now, why did the Irish vote No and why is tis vote being ignored?

Harmonisation of corporation tax rates, WTO negotiations and the potential impact on agriculture, loss of a permanent commissioner, potential loss of neutrality, abortion, common fisheries policy, anti-government vote, threats of repercussions from France and Germany in the event of a "No" vote.

Plus the "Yes" campaign were astonishingly slow out of the blocks and poorly prepared.


I must say, its very nice to have certain elements of the British political establishment so concerned about safeguarding our rights of self-determination, particularly since they never gave a rat's ass about it until last Friday.

OffTheBackAdam

Parkey wrote:

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

...A few more quotes, just to let you all know how our European neighbours look at things...

I don't claim to be any expert on the legal structure of the European Union but if those quotes are as representative or as in-context as your anti-climate change data I have a good measure of their inconsequentiality.

I'm kicking your ass all round the forum on both topics aren't I!

flattythehurdler

Speaking as a Paddy, I find it hard to disagree with the French PM "Those f@cking Irish have fed like pigs from the EU trough for years, and now they've f@cked us".
I reckon the Irish were, as always, interested mainly in the bottom line for themselves.

jpembroke

flattythehurdler wrote:

Speaking as a Paddy, I find it hard to disagree with the French PM "Those f@cking Irish have fed like pigs from the EU trough for years, and now they've f@cked us".
I reckon the Irish were, as always, interested mainly in the bottom line for themselves.

Got a mate, a lecturer at UCC, who feels exactly the same way. As we drive around Ireland he likes to point out the 'EU Funding' sign beside the road as the tarmac becomes smooth. Then, a few miles down the road as the road returns to potholes he retorts "Ah, end of EU funding"

biondino

the public are far too thick to understand the great European Project are they?

Yup, I think that's pretty much spot on.

Parkey

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

I'm kicking your ass all round the forum on both topics aren't I!

If by that you mean in your deepest, most delusional dreams then yes. Yes you are.

biondino wrote:

the public are far too thick to understand the great European Project are they?

Yup, I think that's pretty much spot on.

Absoultely. They need the right wing press to simplify it into soundbytes for them.

LangerDan

flattythehurdler wrote:

Speaking as a Paddy, I find it hard to disagree with the French PM "Those f@cking Irish have fed like pigs from the EU trough for years, and now they've f@cked us".
I reckon the Irish were, as always, interested mainly in the bottom line for themselves.

Well Francois Fillon shouldn't have turned his back and bent over, then. We got out of Brussels what was allocated to us- we weren't exactly knocking off Post Offices in the Ardennes and mugging elderly fur-clad ladies in Nice.

The French haven't exactly been shy in utilising the CAP to protect their own interests either and not to mention that this whole European exercise was partly to protect France against the chance that Germany might go walkabout again.