Who needs B samples - All they do is cause trouble

iainf72

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap ... &type=lgns

There’s another change at this year’s Tour. France’s Chamber of Arbitration for Sport—which falls under the French national Olympic committee—will rule on alleged doping cases, Boyer said.

He said the French arbitration body would rule within 24 hours in suspected doping cases—and would not wait for a second, or “B”, sample to confirm a positive test.

Mortified they signed up to this.

timoid.

Total BS. Trying to look tough, but just looking like a bunch of idiots.

Salsiccia

I keep expecting Brian Rix to enter stage left without any trousers on.

I can see teams and/or riders choosing not to ride the Tour this year, and I wouldn't blame them one little bit. Who is going to want to ride under those conditions?

iainf72

The teams have already accepted it according to the article.

So they're either clean, cowards or have been assured there will be no positives.

timoid.

I think they can't conceive of being caught out.

They're either clean (CA, FDJ, Slipstream, Milram? High Horse?) of have perfected their art (Rabo, SD, Lampre, CE).

Dirty individuals on clean (non doping programme) teams are experts, in denial or unbelievably arrogant.

blazing_saddles

I can't see this holding water outside of France.
Any positive "A" sample would get a rider the automatic boot, from the race,
so nothing new there..
Everyone else will wait for a "B" sample, as normal.
If confirmed, CAS probably, while the usual suspension is followed.
If not confirmed, the French fed may well do a "U" turn.
In anycase, the ASO will do as they please.
Bit of a nothing story.

Cunobelin

Because there will always be errors, corruption and suspicion - there is a need to confirm the result. It is essential.

Firstly it is easy in a "single sample" system to damage, doctor or invalidate the sample, with no independedn assurances.

Secondly in any two result system there will be a false positive and false negative result. In some cases

For instance when examining workplace testing in the US, 61% of doctors collecting urine samples were collected in an "unsafe" manner. Add to this that some tests are oly 87- 99% accurate in the first place and there are real problems.

B samples are\essential if we are to be "fair and equitable" and not simply run a "witch hunt"

blazing_saddles

If you read the statement carefully, they haven't said they won't carry out a "B" test.
On the contrary, for any non-unilateral suspension, it will still be required proof.

drenkrom

What suspension? None of the involved organizations have the authority to sanction non-French riders. That's the scary part for me.

blazing_saddles

Exactly the point. No "B" sample, no effective sanction for non-French, outside of France.
Still, it could be worse, it could be "Big Tex" country.
No drugs problems in their pro sports. :roll:
http://www.wgal.com/sports/16512674/detail.html

micron

Let the UCI do it - then they'll test your B sample 5 times until they get the result they want, just look at Mayo...

RichN95.

This will never work for EU nationals because there are, much to M. Prudhomme's surprise, higher authorities than the ASO and even the CAS. What they do tramples all over the Human Rights Act and probably plenty of other EU laws.

What cycling needs is their own version of the Magna Carta - outlining the basic rights of the peasant (rider) and the rights of the King (Prudhomme)

iainf72

micron wrote:

Let the UCI do it - then they'll test your B sample 5 times until they get the result they want, just look at Mayo...

Quite. The CAS ruling is due soon and really he should dodge the bullet.

iainf72

drenkrom wrote:

What suspension? None of the involved organizations have the authority to sanction non-French riders. That's the scary part for me.

They do. After a fashion.

Because the race is being held under FFC rules most of the riders will probably be competing as "unlicensed" (licence being a UCI thing AFAIK) Therefore the French ADA could sanction unlicensed riders for French events. This is sort of what happened with Landis except he was riding with a valid license.

You know the UCI are waiting to release their 15 day no starts until right at the start of the TdF for maximum embarrasment for ASO. They'll say something like "No start in UCI events for 15 days but feel free to ride the Tour"

Or something. I won't put it past McQuaid.

phil s

The whole sorry situation is summed up for me perfectly by a quote from Full Metal Jacket... "It's a big sh*t sandwich and everybody's gotta take a bite."

Cunobelin

iainf72 wrote:

micron wrote:

Let the UCI do it - then they'll test your B sample 5 times until they get the result they want, just look at Mayo...

Quite. The CAS ruling is due soon and really he should dodge the bullet.

I have been "flamed" for this stance previously, but.........

My personal feeling is that the laboratories and drug "agencies" need to be transparent, clean and totally scrupulous observing the professional, procedural and legal standards.

Without tis there is the chance of a real user getting off on technicalities.

There will always be problems...............

Former world champion Rob Hayles of Britain and Dutch rider Pim Ligthart were banned from the championships when "anomalies" were found in their blood tests. The International Cycling Union said it will stop the riders from competing for 14 days after testing their hematocrit levels.

Hayles was due to compete in the individual pursuit.

"I am disappointed and frustrated to have to wait for further tests over the next two weeks before I can compete again," Hayles said. "I accept the process is in place for good reason and I agree with it."

Ligthart was expected to compete in the men's points race after winning the last World Cup race of the season last month. He said he had been feeling ill for the past week and was taking medication.

"I was dizzy and shaking with headaches," the 19-year-old Dutchman said. "I don't know what happened with this test. I hope the investigation shows what is wrong."

High hematocrit levels can be an indicator of use of the blood booster EPO. Riders who fail the tests automatically are given a two-week suspension on health grounds.

The UCI said it had carried out 66 tests by early Wednesday on the American, Australian, Dutch and British teams.

"These anomalies have happened to others across the world, and after two weeks they have been resolved," Hayles said.

These riders were apparently denied a chance due to an "anomaly" ............

iainf72

Cunobelin wrote:

My personal feeling is that the laboratories and drug "agencies" need to be transparent, clean and totally scrupulous observing the professional, procedural and legal standards.

Without tis there is the chance of a real user getting off on technicalities.

There will always be problems...............

Of course they do. I completely agree. Also, a drug test is a technical procedure so it's all about "technicalities"

Not following the correct protocols could also miss positives - It can go both ways.

micron

All riders will be escorted from the finish line straight to drug testing - previously, under UCI rules, they had an hour to get to the control giving plenty of time for detergent on the hands, bulbs of clean urine under the armpits etc. Surely this is a step in the right direction.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that rider should be allowed to dope under highly controlled circumstances - they must all take exactly the same amount of the same substance thus levelling the playing field and making the whole process such a boring pain in the a*rse that nobody can be bothered

iainf72

micron wrote:

All riders will be escorted from the finish line straight to drug testing - previously, under UCI rules, they had an hour to get to the control giving plenty of time for detergent on the hands, bulbs of clean urine under the armpits etc. Surely this is a step in the right direction.

I've not cofirmed it but apparantly they're doing a lot less tests than usual. That's not a step in the right direction. An element of randomness about it is always good.

ddraver

RichN95 wrote:

What cycling needs is their own version of the Magna Carta - outlining the basic rights of the peasant (rider) and the rights of the King (Prudhomme)

Love it..... :P

micron

where did you hear that iain? I was under the impression that one of the reasons ASO were happy to take testing outside the UCI is because they are free to conduct more tests not less, as they did at P-N - with more random tests throughout the race.

Kléber

As said above, the likes of Hayles can get suspended from races on the basis of one test alone and this is similar, a move to stop someone racing, it won't ban them. It's only saying the A-sample means you are suspended from the race. It'll still take a B-sample to get stripped of any previous stage wins and to get fined and banned.

But it's a PR measure, designed to eject the slightest whiff of scandal from the race. At the first sign of trouble, ie the positive A-test, the rider will be sent far away. In reality, this often happens with a rider getting stomach/back pain and then giving a press conference a week later when his B-sample comes back.

On the other hand, it will still be possible to watch the likes of Landis win the race, only for weeks after the event realise they weren't watching a proper race. The testing of A-samples can take time too.

So make no mistake, this is only for show and won't sort out the problems of doping but what else can ASO do? Until the UCI ups its testing regime, until it tests more riders in more ways, then ASO is reduced to stunts like this. You can't ban doping but you still find easy ways to reduce it, the UCI has yet to do this.

blazing_saddles

The UCI/ASO/WADA and CAS need to get together and come up with a new set of guidelines.
I suggest the following:-
For English speaking riders or those with connection to English speaking countries, any positive test should be written off as an anomaly. Back dated TUE's should be issued, to ensure any further anomalies are "natural".
Scrap all testing for French riders, as everyone knows they are clean.
German rider's should have negative "A" samples confirmed by their "B" and a new "C" sample, which they have to pay for.
Each test should be accompanied by either a) A confesssion b) Whistleblowing.
Italian riders who produce a winning performance should not be tested, but handed an automatic two-year suspension.
*Spanish riders upon testing, should be suspended and made to wait two years for the results.

* The Spanish federation and judiciary given the right to deny any testing took place and therefore there is insufficient evidence to enforce the ban. Riders can then join Relax, temporarily retire or change their names to Vavlverde and continue to ride as if nothing has happened.

iainf72

Micron

Here you go. It's from http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... _ffc_jun08

I'm having difficulty making any sense of it. They had some success last year including a really high profile guy but now they're changing things? And he mentions 160 controls (8 a day, about right based on what I expect) but wants to be more efficient which implies less, non?


Fewer controls but more targeted, says AFLD
Prudhomme no longer believes in the high number of doping controls during the Tour de France, but rather a more targeted approach on suspect riders. "Last year, I went to the Tour of Romandie for the announcement of 160 controls during the Tour de France," he recalled of the pact signed with UCI president Pat McQuaid and the then AIGCP (International Association of Professional Cycling Teams) president Patrick Lefévère.

The disastrous experience of the 2007 Tour de France, with the positive tests of Alexander Vinokourov, Cristian Moreni and the exclusion of Michael Rasmussen, has changed his mind. "Now, I believe in targets," he said.

This is exactly what the AFLD wants to do before and during the Tour de France. "Our priority is to be efficient," said AFLD president Pierre Bordry, who had a constructive meeting with the UCI on May 14 and insisted that his agency works independently from ASO.

"We have the support of WADA and of the association of the national anti-doping agencies," Bordry added. "We count on them to give us the necessary information for our targets."

DaveyL

Blazing Saddles wrote:

The UCI/ASO/WADA and CAS need to get together and come up with a new set of guidelines.
I suggest the following:-
For English speaking riders or those with connection to English speaking countries, any positive test should be written off as an anomaly. Back dated TUE's should be issued, to ensure any further anomalies are "natural".
Scrap all testing for French riders, as everyone knows they are clean.
German rider's should have negative "A" samples confirmed by their "B" and a new "C" sample, which they have to pay for.
Each test should be accompanied by either a) A confesssion b) Whistleblowing.
Italian riders who produce a winning performance should not be tested, but handed an automatic two-year suspension.
*Spanish riders upon testing, should be suspended and made to wait two years for the results.

* The Spanish federation and judiciary given the right to deny any testing took place and therefore there is insufficient evidence to enforce the ban. Riders can then join Relax, temporarily retire or change their names to Vavlverde and continue to ride as if nothing has happened.

Yes, I suppose Pim Ligthart speaks English, what with him being Dutch. They usually speak English very well.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

So make no mistake, this is only for show and won't sort out the problems of doping but what else can ASO do? Until the UCI ups its testing regime, until it tests more riders in more ways, then ASO is reduced to stunts like this. You can't ban doping but you still find easy ways to reduce it, the UCI has yet to do this.

But it seems that ASO events will have less tests. And yeah, and the hair tests? They're only used if you get a positive A and B from urine or blood.

So they're doing less tests using the conventional methods?

Kléber

Like some of us have said on here, they should be doing 50 tests a day, not 5. If only for PR reasons, but it's worth thinking that doing 50 tests a day would probably have scared off Moreni and so kept Cofidis in the race, one scandal less, something ASO would have loved.

Even better, they need to do start and finish line blood tests, within 5 minutes of each stage start for the top-10. In short, they could impose a draconian blood passport scheme for 3 weeks. All this won't stop doping, ASO can't do whereabouts testing to track certain Danish riders in June, but it would have prevented the Vinokourov scandal.

blazing_saddles

iainf72 wrote:

But it seems that ASO events will have less tests. And yeah, and the hair tests? They're only used if you get a positive A and B from urine or blood.

So they're doing less tests using the conventional methods?

Hang on a minute, there's that pesky "B" test they weren't supposed to be using.
Sort of makes all the earler debate totally redundant.
Must make this another kick the ASO thread.
All this hate over a possible ban from racing in France.
Nothing to do with the rest of the World.
Seems like a strong Tour message, nothing more.

LangerDan

Kléber wrote:

Like some of us have said on here, they should be doing 50 tests a day, not 5. If only for PR reasons, but it's worth thinking that doing 50 tests a day would probably have scared off Moreni and so kept Cofidis in the race, one scandal less, something ASO would have loved.

50 tests a day is ambitious and probably unworkable. The EPO test alone is €600+ purely to carry out the test, let alone the sample gathering and the subsequent analysis. If you were to assume a relatively conservative cost of , say, €1000 per test, the anti-doping bill for the Tour is over €1 million. In reality you'll have to run a reasonable spectrum of tests to ensure that you don't drive the riders to particular forms of doping on the basis of doing cheap tests. You could then be looking at several thousand euro per test and the doping bill for a the TdF could easily hit €5 million. If the cost is borne by the squads, thats another €250K per squad or, assuming there was no rift, about half of the UCI annual anti doping budget. Like any commercial organisation, ASO will try their best to get someone else to pay that bill. The logistics of lining up that many riders per day for testing would also be significant.

Pretty soon you get to a point where you have to decide if the costs of preventing a Moreni-type incident are actually greater than the cost of the PR damage. The fact that ASO want to fine the teams €100,000 probably puts a better figure on the actual damage per incident.

feersumendjinn

Numerous studies indicate that head hair grows at an average rate of 1cm a month, therefore for every 1cm length of hair we can go back1 month in time establishing a historical pattern of misuse. However should the substance misuser be unable to provide a head hair sample, for whatever reason, we can also test body hair, but due to a differentiation between the lag and growth phases we cannot give a specific month by month breakdown.

Not 100% sure how much use the hair test will be, don't most pro riders shave everything?

LangerDan

1 cm / month? The labs should be able to tell what Pellizotti had for Christmas dinner, 1994.