CycloSportive Glass Houses

juggler

I think timing chips should be optional on sportives. When i first did the Dragon Ride (2005), if you wanted a timing chip then it cost extra... since then timing chips seem to be compulsory on all sportives. I think you should be able to 'just ride the route' without the obligation of being timed and then your name and finishing time being posted up on the Web. OK you could neglect to tie the chip to your bike or avoid going over the timing mats, but i think if they make them optional and charged say £5 extra it might be a good thing.

Would maybe help to diffuse the 'are sportives really races debate', but still allows those who want to compare their performance to others to do so.

Kléber

That's what you get in France. You do a cyclosportive and get your finishing time and position on your certificate, or ride as a cyclotourist, where you get no time or finishing position, just confirmation that you completed the course. It's funny, cyclosportive means something different in English than it does in French.

juggler

Didn't know that - sounds a good system.

k1ng_of_england

Now maybe I'm getting paranoid, but these posts by King of England look to me exactly like they were written by the cyclosport editor. Given postings like this, and the fact that the IACO website seems to be intrinsically linked to cyclosport.org, I get a very real feeling that someone is trying to cajole the organisers into some kind of commercial reliance on cyclosport.org. Now, I have no problem with this if that is what the organisers want. But it all seems rather cloak and dagger.[/quote


Hi Paranoid,
Sorry to disappoint you but I'm nothing to do with cyclosport, I'm just a rider who enjoys the odd sportive and who is rather saddened that Cylosport has gone. My suggestion was born out frustration at seeing hundreds of people fail to turn up for the Chiltern 100 when I really wanted to ride it myself.

With the demise of Cyclosport I moved my attention to this forum and I sense that a 'them and us' culture seems to exist here! I'm not concerned if someone makes a few quid out of organising these events (hell I don't want to do it), I just want to know when they're on and be sure I can get in them.
[/quote]

ledburyloafer

k1ng_of_england wrote:

Now maybe I'm getting paranoid, but these posts by King of England look to me exactly like they were written by the cyclosport editor. Given postings like this, and the fact that the IACO website seems to be intrinsically linked to cyclosport.org, I get a very real feeling that someone is trying to cajole the organisers into some kind of commercial reliance on cyclosport.org. Now, I have no problem with this if that is what the organisers want. But it all seems rather cloak and dagger.[/quote


Hi Paranoid,
Sorry to disappoint you but I'm nothing to do with cyclosport, I'm just a rider who enjoys the odd sportive and who is rather saddened that Cylosport has gone. My suggestion was born out frustration at seeing hundreds of people fail to turn up for the Chiltern 100 when I really wanted to ride it myself.

With the demise of Cyclosport I moved my attention to this forum and I sense that a 'them and us' culture seems to exist here! I'm not concerned if someone makes a few quid out of organising these events (hell I don't want to do it), I just want to know when they're on and be sure I can get in them.

[/quote]

Bang on the money k1ng of England, guess the them and us scenario is a natural folow on of italian/japanes! :twisted:

SteveR_100Milers

Ken Night wrote:

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

[Whatever personal views one may have of Cyclosport are kind of irrelevant if we now no longer have a useful list and central portal for event planning, which after all was its simple purpose.....

It is a loss

One will emerge, probably through British Cycling

Mark deserved to be able to make an income from his idea and the site, IMHO, had he run it in a businesslike, open and courteous manner

Maybe, but the politics were really (in the grand scheme of things) relatively insignificant. Perhaps given too much credibilty in some quarters. With te proliferation of so many events selling out in such short time, there was a huge need for a properly organised calendar. That said, the whole IACO thing seems somewhat unnecessary with so many other regulatory bodies already in cycling.

I like the idea of optional chips, whether you want to race or not, for it to be as popular clearly it must be perceived as at worst or best depending on your viewpoint as only a semi serious competitive event, otherwise if it becomes a race and no one will ride it other than the relatively small number who ride RR's already.
Havent we been here already??

Booboocp

I have no axe to grind and I'm not now involved with any organisation. But from an outsiders point of view Cyclosport.org cannot hope to prosper until someone experienced and good at handling people takes over the organisation. To be honest I think the damage already done may be un-repairable.

I recently worked on two sportives as the photographer and it was immediately obvious why the organisers were running the event. It's pretty easy to spot people who genuinely love the sport and have it's best interests at heart...

k1ng_of_england

Booboocp wrote:

I recently worked on two sportives as the photographer and it was immediately obvious why the organisers were running the event. It's pretty easy to spot people who genuinely love the sport and have it's best interests at heart...

Absolutely agree with what you're saying....but do you need to have the sports best interest at heart to run an event? If I rode that event and enjoyed it I wouldn't care if they made a profit for themselves or not.

Sure, I respect some people more than others for what they do for the sport, but I'm not against a bit of profiteering if it get's us more events.

Diesel_engine

k1ng_of_england wrote:

Hi Paranoid,
Sorry to disappoint you but I'm nothing to do with cyclosport, I'm just a rider who enjoys the odd sportive and who is rather saddened that Cylosport has gone. My suggestion was born out frustration at seeing hundreds of people fail to turn up for the Chiltern 100 when I really wanted to ride it myself.

With the demise of Cyclosport I moved my attention to this forum and I sense that a 'them and us' culture seems to exist here! I'm not concerned if someone makes a few quid out of organising these events (hell I don't want to do it), I just want to know when they're on and be sure I can get in them.

Fair enough, k1ng_of_england. I guess I'm getting too suspicious in my old age.

I'm also saddened by the (hopefully temporary) demise of cyclosport - it helped and encouraged me to get into the sport and I'll miss it if it goes.

Diesel_engine

Booboocp wrote:

I have no axe to grind and I'm not now involved with any organisation. But from an outsiders point of view Cyclosport.org cannot hope to prosper until someone experienced and good at handling people takes over the organisation. To be honest I think the damage already done may be un-repairable.

I recently worked on two sportives as the photographer and it was immediately obvious why the organisers were running the event. It's pretty easy to spot people who genuinely love the sport and have it's best interests at heart...

Booboo
Agree with you that cyclosport.org needs someone with more political nouse running it. But I would also say that it was pretty clear that Mark had huge enthusiasm, passion, even 'genuine love' for the cyclosport scene.

Ken Night

k1ng_of_england wrote:

Absolutely agree with what you're saying....but do you need to have the sports best interest at heart to run an event? If I rode that event and enjoyed it I wouldn't care if they made a profit for themselves or not.

Sure, I respect some people more than others for what they do for the sport, but I'm not against a bit of profiteering if it get's us more events.

"Get's"? ....sounds familiar...

Sportives are fun to do, and I don't suppose any of us mind if the event is charitable or commercial. But that is not the issue here

musto_skiff

What did they fall out over?

Michuel

k1ng_of_england wrote:

Sure, I respect some people more than others for what they do for the sport, but I'm not against a bit of profiteering if it get's us more events.

king_of_england, as a professed free marketeer you'll no doubt appreciate the value of correct objective information for a market. Diss-ing what I and many others feel looks like one of the best organised sportives - the Highclere - isn't a positive way forward for cyclo-sportives.

Bronzie

musto_skiff wrote:

What did they fall out over?

It's not entirely clear. The latest development (the Cyclosport website being pulled) follows on from the promotion of the Highclere sportif this weekend supposedly being as a "race", although it seems pretty identical to the way the other events on the calendar are being promoted. Perhaps more significant is that the Highclere is being heavily promoted on British Cycling's own website.

To my mind, Mark Harding who set the site up the Cyclosport.org in the first place, has got p*ssed off that British Cycling (with it's own Everydaycycling site) is "muscling in" on "his" sportive scene. BC didn't really want to know about sportives to start with, but then they twigged that they were very popular and would be a great way to boost their own membership and also encourage people into full on racing (that's how it worked out for me anyway).

He has spent a huge amount of time and effort (and probably money) on the site, and having met him a few times I can confirm he has huge enthusiasm for the sportive scene. I suspect he thought he could make a career out of the site, hence it's growing commercialism which I have no problem with - if he's prepared to put the effort in, why shouldn't he be rewarded?

As an impartial observer, I'd say he doesn't like the competition. I personally think the Cyclosport is/was a better product than BC's own offering (with it's own forum, personalised calendar etc) and that he could still make a go of things, but pulling the site seems to be shooting himself in the foot. If it goes on much longer, people will soon forget the site even existed and head to the competition.

It'd be great to hear from the horses mouth what's really going on but he has claimed before that he can't post on here "for legal reasons".

Bronzie

k1ng_of_england wrote:

I moved my attention to this forum and I sense that a 'them and us' culture seems to exist here!

I don't sense it at all on BikeRadar. I ride road races, track, time trials, sportives, audaxes - that's why I like this forum over the many other offerings as it's a little bit of all of those rather than just focusing on any one. If you want a "them" and "us" culture, have a look on Veloriders where the hardcore road racers hang out - "sportive" is a dirty word over there. :roll:

le_patron

Bronzie wrote:

k1ng_of_england wrote:

I moved my attention to this forum and I sense that a 'them and us' culture seems to exist here!

I don't sense it at all on BikeRadar. I ride road races, track, time trials, sportives, audaxes - that's why I like this forum over the many other offerings as it's a little bit of all of those rather than just focusing on any one. If you want a "them" and "us" culture, have a look on Veloriders where the hardcore road racers hang out - "sportive" is a dirty word over there. :roll:

Agree with all points

Makes me chuckle as many of the 'hardcore' racers on veloriders wouldn't be anywhere near the front on the premier Fondos/Sportives in Italy and France

Hopefully I haven't started anything with that comment

Earthdreamer

I guess there are a lot of people now, who were part of a community at cyclosport.org, built up by Mark through a lot of hard work and boundless enthusiasm, who have lost their home and are now looking for a new one. I think I've found it! I missed logging on and seeing what people are posting about, and I have now joined this forum as a result. I've also moved the blog I was running at cyclosport.org to another home (http://earthydreaming.blogspot.com) and I'm unlikely now to move it back if there was a change of heart or circumstances. I feel sad because I love to see passion rewarded but the bottom-line is that this is too small a world to go around falling out with people.

Diesel_engine

Bronzie - you are a very wise man!!!

Earthdreamer

Thanks for that. Me too! I feel I've been left on tenterhooks. I'm hoping that people will find their way over here quickly enough. And I certainly hope that Morgan does. He's so funny!

Bronzie

Diesel_engine wrote:

Bronzie - you are a very wise man!!!

You heard it here first!

Kléber

There's obviously a big demand for a useful reference point for all the info. As is the way of the internet, you can start a site within minutes for £50 and away you go, so cyclosport would never have a monopoly, only that with loads of users, it was becoming the number one site. So competition could probably be seen off by good coverage, smart design and more.

So I don't understand why competition was a problem. No one on the internet can run a monopoly, the whole point is that browsers can go where they want.

knight2k

From reading various forum posts it looks like Cyclosport has finished because the guy who ran it is a egomaniac.

Independent Association of Cyclosportive Organisers indeed, who does he think he is? Bernie F**king Ecclestone?

Booboocp

OK lets add a bit of common sense and honesty to this debate.

I was a member of a small cycling club who had an idea after riding the Fred Whitton a number of times that it would be nice if Yorkshire could have something similar. At that time I belonged to no organisation.

I approached my club and it was pretty obvious we could not even think about it, not enough resources available, so the idea was put on hold. Then I joined BC Yorkshire as a volunteer and after a short while saw an opportunity - so I went cap in hand to the BC Yorkshire workgroup and put forward my proposal of a sportive to help put funds back into cycling in Yorkshire, in particular youth cycling.

The White Rose Classic was born. I'm immensley proud of what myself and the team at BC Yorkshire have acheived. Anyone who thinks BC came up with this idea is sadly mistaken - it was my brainchild alone and I'm taking all the credit for the idea, then once again re-iterating it is very much a BC Yorkshire team effort.

The event has enabled BC Yorkshire to set up the best Youth league in Britain, something nobody ever seems to care about. All the revenue goes back into cycling in Yorkshire, there is nobody here creaming off any of the funds raised. If that is not a good model for a sportive, then I don't know what is.

I can see no reason therefore why the BC organisation shouldn't aim to improve and expand the various services surrounding such events, for example timing etc. It is just common (and good business) sense. The issues with Mark Harding and the Cyclosport site is that he threw a strop about this, seeing BC as his competitor, when infact the hand of partnership was offered to him. I'm not getting into the politics of the matter, because I stayed as clear as I could, but his banning me from the Cyclosport site for many months just because I was a BC volunteer and his treatment of me was disgraceful. Enough said.

I myself have been forced to step away from BC and the organisation because of my photography. I'm not permitted to make money from BC events (despite the fact a high proportion goes to Cancer charities) while working for BC Yorkshire - fair enough, I've stood down.

I love the sport and anyone who knows me will realise this. I'm available to anyone for help and advice and this will always remain the case, though my photography has now become a 'must do' as I intend to make a career out of it.

Oh well, if you've read this far, then thanks.

Tom Butcher

Bronzie wrote:

k1ng_of_england wrote:

I moved my attention to this forum and I sense that a 'them and us' culture seems to exist here!

I don't sense it at all on BikeRadar. I ride road races, track, time trials, sportives, audaxes - that's why I like this forum over the many other offerings as it's a little bit of all of those rather than just focusing on any one. If you want a "them" and "us" culture, have a look on Veloriders where the hardcore road racers hang out - "sportive" is a dirty word over there. :roll:

Don't think that's true Bronzie - a lot of them take the piss out of anything including each other and sportives - but a lot of them probably ride sportives too - it's just a different vibe to over here no better or worse imo.

SteveR_100Milers

Booboocp wrote:

OK lets add a bit of common sense and honesty to this debate.

I was a member of a small cycling club who had an idea after riding the Fred Whitton a number of times that it would be nice if Yorkshire could have something similar. At that time I belonged to no organisation.

I approached my club and it was pretty obvious we could not even think about it, not enough resources available, so the idea was put on hold. Then I joined BC Yorkshire as a volunteer and after a short while saw an opportunity - so I went cap in hand to the BC Yorkshire workgroup and put forward my proposal of a sportive to help put funds back into cycling in Yorkshire, in particular youth cycling.

The White Rose Classic was born. I'm immensley proud of what myself and the team at BC Yorkshire have acheived. Anyone who thinks BC came up with this idea is sadly mistaken - it was my brainchild alone and I'm taking all the credit for the idea, then once again re-iterating it is very much a BC Yorkshire team effort.

The event has enabled BC Yorkshire to set up the best Youth league in Britain, something nobody ever seems to care about. All the revenue goes back into cycling in Yorkshire, there is nobody here creaming off any of the funds raised. If that is not a good model for a sportive, then I don't know what is.

I can see no reason therefore why the BC organisation shouldn't aim to improve and expand the various services surrounding such events, for example timing etc. It is just common (and good business) sense. The issues with Mark Harding and the Cyclosport site is that he threw a strop about this, seeing BC as his competitor, when infact the hand of partnership was offered to him. I'm not getting into the politics of the matter, because I stayed as clear as I could, but his banning me from the Cyclosport site for many months just because I was a BC volunteer and his treatment of me was disgraceful. Enough said.

I myself have been forced to step away from BC and the organisation because of my photography. I'm not permitted to make money from BC events (despite the fact a high proportion goes to Cancer charities) while working for BC Yorkshire - fair enough, I've stood down.

I love the sport and anyone who knows me will realise this. I'm available to anyone for help and advice and this will always remain the case, though my photography has now become a 'must do' as I intend to make a career out of it.

Oh well, if you've read this far, then thanks.

This has puzled me too. BC does have links to sportives through every day cycling, and once Cyclosport starting making up its own rules then it was always going to be doomed politically, we really don't need yet anotehr separate governing body.
Either way, the site is back up and running and the calendar intact.

a_n_t

Bronzie wrote:

Mark Harding who set the site up the Cyclosport.org in the first place, has got p*ssed off that British Cycling (with it's own Everydaycycling site) is "muscling in" on "his" sportive scene.

bingo.

wildmoustache

welcome to the internecine warfare of british cycling (sportive campaign)

mrushton

Bronzie wrote:

Michuel wrote:

And what about Etape, Marmotte ...? Are they tourist events?

There IS a danger in sportives becoming quasi-races and the police then asking for the same standards as those applied to full on road races - if this were to happen, then most sportive organisers would struggle to get permission to run the events at all.

why not call them 'audaxives'

seriously, I just did the WRC and I've done a number of audaxes and the latter were harder with less support (if any!) and from what I've seen of other sportives there is really little difference apart from the roads being signed and not having to faff about with a route sheet.

wildmoustache

mrushton wrote:

Bronzie wrote:

Michuel wrote:

And what about Etape, Marmotte ...? Are they tourist events?

There IS a danger in sportives becoming quasi-races and the police then asking for the same standards as those applied to full on road races - if this were to happen, then most sportive organisers would struggle to get permission to run the events at all.

why not call them 'audaxives'

seriously, I just did the WRC and I've done a number of audaxes and the latter were harder with less support (if any!) and from what I've seen of other sportives there is really little difference apart from the roads being signed and not having to faff about with a route sheet.

wait a minute ... these audaxives sound suspiciously like races ...

andy_wrx

mrushton wrote:

seriously, I just did the WRC and I've done a number of audaxes and the latter were harder with less support (if any!) and from what I've seen of other sportives there is really little difference apart from the roads being signed and not having to faff about with a route sheet.

Heretic !!!

Such sentiments could get you banned from another forum...