Which Hybrid to choose (yes another help me choose topic)

mtbcommuter

Ok so after much deliberation I've decided to swap my MTB commute to a hybrid, the journey will alternate between either 5 or 10 miles due to working from two sites. It will only be stored in a very secure area each time so nickability isn't a problem.
The type of commute will be mainly road/tarmac track although the first 4 mile of it is uphill with a fair climb.
I've got a budget of £250 and I'm currently looking at these;

Revolution Courier Classic '08 http://www.edinburghbicycle.com/ebwPNLq ... 155c002910
Giant CRS 3 http://www.edinburghbicycle.com/ebwPNLq ... 155c002910
or
Kona Smoke 2-9 2008 http://www.evanscycles.com/product.jsp?style=86453

I'd appreciate anyone who has any of these/opinions to pass on their experience/advice.

MattHybrid

I own a Revolution Courier Race '07, similar to the Revolution Courier except with 700c tyres. It's been an excellent bike, and it sounds like I have a similar commute to you, varying between 5 & 10 miles, except my commute distance depends if I can be arsd taking the scenic route or not!
To make it a comfortable/safe commute I've had to pay extra to get front & rear mudguards fitted, lights, bar ends & toe clips. It does everything I need for my commute now. The only problem I've had is that the chain occasionally jumps off the front gear if you go over any really bumpy patches.

meanwhile

Assuming that you've got a decent mountain bike, why bother? 700c wheels aren't necessarily faster than 26ers; all that matters is the tyre contact patch area. (People have superstitions otherwise; they're wrong.) Put a 1 to 1.25 inch high pressure slick on your current bike, and you'll get the benefits you're lucking for for about £200 less. Don't forget to clean your chain and gears and spray them with oil

Otoh, if you get the Bike To Work tax break, the Courier is so cheap you might as well buy one just to get a bike with less wear and tear - you'll get half your money back. In which case you might want to get the Courier with disc brakes - safer in the wet, and not much more cash.

mtbcommuter

meanwhile wrote:

Assuming that you've got a decent mountain bike, why bother? 700c wheels aren't necessarily faster than 26ers; all that matters is the tyre contact patch area. (People have superstitions otherwise; they're wrong.) Put a 1 to 1.25 inch high pressure slick on your current bike, and you'll get the benefits you're lucking for for about £200 less. Don't forget to clean your chain and gears and spray them with oil

Otoh, if you get the Bike To Work tax break, the Courier is so cheap you might as well buy one just to get a bike with less wear and tear - you'll get half your money back. In which case you might want to get the Courier with disc brakes - safer in the wet, and not much more cash.

Ok I've read this before about the mtb 26"ers being as fast as hybrid 700c's etc. but also read arguments against. Here is the spec of my bike;
Scott MX 1- 21 speed MTB (front suspension) around 4 year old and in good shape. It is currently sporting 26 x 1.75 tyres which are the semi slick with knobbly shoulder type (for occasional off road use) I use SPD peddles/shoes. I have a suspended seat post and liberator saddle for comfort, MTB rack & bag set + lights, bell etc.

I work varying shifts and only cycle to work on day shifts, as above I can work from 2 sites but have secure facilities/locker/shower etc. at both (reading other threads I appreciate how lucky I am) The first 2.5 miles of my ride is uphill (error above) and takes around 15-20 mins, if I'm cycling the short route the last 3 miles is down hill, the longer route is a gradual drop of around 2.5 miles then flat for 5 miles all of this is on 30 mph road/tracks.

I like the Scott but always feel that on flat/downill I could do with an extra gear or two? When away from work I fix a Trail-a-tot trailor to the bike to drag the four year old to school and back or chuck the dog (JRT) in there as well and drag them both to the park.

I love commuting on the bike but always feel I could do it so much quicker/easier on a hybrid or even a road bike, am I wrong and should I just stick with what I have?
Would sticking on 1 or 1.25" slicks really make a noticeable difference?

btw I'm not self employed and my employer doesn't have the cycle to work scheme although If it's easy to set up I think they'd consider it.

thamacdaddy

I disagree with what the poster said above. Commuted on my MTB for nearly a year and even with 1.5 pretty slick fast rolling tyres the weight of the bike especially with suspension and the gearing (44 32 24 front of which I only ever used the 44 ring and a 11-32 back) I couldn't even get the speeds or pleasure I now get from my road bike.

It had got to the point recently where I could feel the mtb was holding me back in terms of drag, downhill speed and climbing. I was doing 40-50 mile road rides at weekends and getting totally wasted by friends on hybrids and road bikes though I did my best.

I did wonder if it was all in the head. I was also worried if commuting on a racing bike given the very heavy traffic I have here was wise given a more racing position and less manourability as such compared with a MTB but turns out what everyone says is true.

The racing bike is really light, pleasure on the climbs, really nippy and responsive and not much more difficult even in heavy traffic. You feel everything you put in is going into the actual ride and not being wasted and you don't feel held back by anything as you only have your fitness as a difference...gearing is better, wheels are better.

I am even considering getting a cheap hybrid with limited gearing or a second hand road bike for when winter hits as I like my nice road bike and want to keep it that way.

Trust me there is a big difference it isn't bull and once you feel that difference it gives you even more pleasure from the cycle commute and in my case my longer rides.

Up to you for sure but I don't regret making the switch and I can now do up my MTB to being truely off road worthy to take it out on some proper trails.

If you spend a huge amount on really light wheels (disc brakes will up the weight as well) get the thinnest tires and switch out any suspension you might get close but the weight difference is still huge and on the road you really notice it.

Having said all this I am doing manc to liverpool ride on sunday on my MTB due to the fact everywhere I have read said the route is not good for road bikes. So one more big distance ride on my MTB.

robeekay67

boardman urban pro....absolute gem of a bike......purchased under the halford's cycle to work scheme so subject to 40% off.

i have nothing but praise for the bike manager at the harlow branch who dealt with me.

only problem is finding one. i understand new stock is due week 11 (early June).

meanwhile

mtbcommuter wrote:

Ok I've read this before about the mtb 26"ers being as fast as hybrid 700c's etc. but also read arguments against. Here is the spec of my bike;
Scott MX 1- 21 speed MTB (front suspension) around 4 year old and in good shape. It is currently sporting 26 x 1.75 tyres which are the semi slick with knobbly shoulder type (for occasional off road use) I use SPD peddles/shoes. I have a suspended seat post and liberator saddle for comfort, MTB rack & bag set + lights, bell etc.

Running "combination" knobbly 1.75's on the road - ugh. Put good 1.25 slicks and you'll get half the road resistance and twice the cornering grip.

If your suspension fork has a lock out feature, use it on the road.

BUT if you really need/want good offroad and on-road bikes, and changing tyres is too much of a drag, you will need two bikes.

I like the Scott but always feel that on flat/downill I could do with an extra gear or two?

Most people have too slow a maximum cadence for optimum efficiency, but hey, you're commuting. Your LBS can change the gears on your bike for you, or you can do it yourself, for not much cash. But then you'll probably have less hill climbing power - and the same will be true if you buy a faster geared hybrid. Only you know if this will matter.

I love commuting on the bike but always feel I could do it so much quicker/easier on a hybrid or even a road bike, am I wrong and should I just stick with what I have?
Would sticking on 1 or 1.25" slicks really make a noticeable difference?

Huge. From the speed and safety pov:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tyres.html

Knobby treads actually give worse traction on hard surfaces! This is because the knobs can bend under side loads, while a smooth tread cannot.

The bending of knobs can cause discontinuities in handling; the tyre grips OK for mild cornering, but as cornering force exceeds some critical value, the knobs start to bend and the traction suddenly goes to Hell in a handbasket.

Many tyre makers market "combination tread" tyres, that are purported to work well both on pavement and dirt. Generally, they don't.

The usual design is to have a smooth ridge down the centre of the tread, with knobs on the sides. The theory is that the ridge will provide a smooth ride on pavement, with the tyre inflated fairly hard, and the knobs will come into play off-road, with the tyre running at lower pressure (or sinking into a soft surface.) Another aspect of this design is that the knobs are intended to come into play as you lean into a turn.

In practice, combination tread tyres don't work all that well. They do OK in dirt, but they're pretty lousy on pavement. They're much heavier than street tyres, and if you corner aggressively, the transition from the centre strip to the knobs can cause sudden washout. They aren't quite as slow and buzzy as true dirt tyres, but they're much worse in this respect than smoothies.

If you mostly ride on pavement, but also do a fair amount of dirt, a combination tyre on the front may be a good choice for you, with a road tyre on the back. See the section on mixing/matching tyres.

I was almost killed once, because I was riding alongside some idiot in the traffic stream coming out of Marble Arch, down to South Kensington. We accelerated with the hill and pulled out into the middle of the lane where we were safe from cars - then we came to a corner, and he couldn't keep the line he'd chosen. The bike looked like it was walking sideways. He was a courier, too, so he he should have known better than to ride the Tyres Of Death. Combination tyres - pah.

You might not want more cornering power than you have every day, but it could save your life in evasive maneuver, or by preventing a skid in the wet.

Anyway, the bottom line on bike speed is that it comes out of total tyre contact and aerodynamics. Wheel size per se is irrelevant. Oh, mechanical efficiency counts too, but a good MTB is actually very good here.

btw I'm not self employed and my employer doesn't have the cycle to work scheme although If it's easy to set up I think they'd consider it.

It should be very easy for them and you would save a fortune. See

http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/

http://www.edinburghbicycle.com/comms/s ... Qgod4VuLjw

You can put the cost of waterproofs, racks, etc, on the scheme too.

As a compromise, why not try 1 or 1.25 slicks on your MTB while trying to get the scheme in place? If you get the scheme, get a hybrid. Selling it at the end of the 3 years of the scheme will pay back your cost, at which point you get another bike. If you don't get on the scheme, then try a hybrid and compare it to your slicked up Scott and make an informed decision.

meanwhile

thamacdaddy wrote:

I disagree with what the poster said above. Commuted on my MTB for nearly a year and even with 1.5 pretty slick fast rolling tyres the weight of the bike especially with suspension and the gearing (44 32 24 front of which I only ever used the 44 ring and a 11-32 back) I couldn't even get the speeds or pleasure I now get from my road bike.

Tyres are either slick or not. "Pretty slick" tyres are a marketing con with reduced performance - see the link on tyres in my post above. Ok, pretty slick is better than semi-knobbly, but you're still buying a tyre that was designed for marketing rather than efficiency. As for the weight of your suspension holding your bike back, no, it was almost certainly the mechanical inefficiency of the suspension and associated power loss - that's why I asked the guy whether his bike had suspension. (Front suspension only won't steal too much power if set up right and maintained, but ideally should be locked out on the road.)

I did wonder if it was all in the head. I was also worried if commuting on a racing bike given the very heavy traffic I have here was wise given a more racing position and less manourability as such compared with a MTB but turns out what everyone says is true.

The racing bike is really light, pleasure on the climbs, really nippy and responsive and not much more difficult even in heavy traffic. You feel everything you put in is going into the actual ride and not being wasted and you don't feel held back by anything as you only have your fitness as a difference...gearing is better, wheels are better.

Umm.. you do know the gears on a bike aren't welded on? And I have nothing against a drop handle in traffic - I'd ride one - but a lot of people will find them scarier or honestly more dangerous.

As for the rest, yes, a rigid bike with less contact patch will be faster. And a good racing bike will be faster than a slicked up rigid mtb, unless the mtb has truly exceptional characteristics - but only very marginally so, literally five minutes in a hour. The difference with most hybrid will be non-existent, unless they have drops. A racing bike will be the fastest solution on most roads, but a lot of people would settle for 95% as fast, tougher, better bad weather capability and emergency braking, and a fraction of the cost, if all they need is a tyre change.

Finally, in *real* traffic, a correctly slicked rigid 26 MTB with the right stem, gears (probably singlespeed outside of San Francisco) and hbars will be at least as fast a racing bike. There are good engineering reasons for this, and it's been proved over and over in alleycat races. Most of what people think they know about wheel size is superstition, and not a good reason to spend £400 rather than £40 to speed up a commute.

Otoh, spending £150 on the B2W scheme to get a second bike with disk brakes would be a hell of a good deal! (Note to the OP: just check for pannier and mudguard compatibility if you buy a disc brake bike; it can be a pain.) Oh, and that suspension seat post could be stealing pedaling energy too. But if you really need it to ride on the rode on big tyres comfortably, then any sort of fast road bike will be a pain.

thamacdaddy

In case I didn't explain properly I was simply trying to say this: a hybrid/road bike set up for me would definately be a good investment especially at the prices quoted, but its a personal choice on whether a MTB slicked up properly, with better gearing perhaps and a locked out or rigid fork will make you a happy camper in that respect.

I have to put a slight apology out though cause I don't disagree on his points entirely they are totally valid and correct in what he is saying, when I said disagree I should have probably phrased it as "Although that makes total sense you might be better investnig the money on a road specific design depending on how close your current MTB is to hitting those specs". That was what I was really getting at and I suppose I also presumed your MTB would be at a level mine was when I had to make the same decision which was:

- Poor stock Marzocchi suspension in need of service or replace for rigid or better forks with lockout.
- Heavy mavic rims in need of servicing (spokes and hubs) and or replace
- Soft compound semi slick (agree bs idea) tyres in need of replacing for something totally slick an in 1.5 or lower size
- Replacing the crankset to a larger tooth and closer ratio casette for the extra zip I now needed due to my fitness increases and the lack of use the 32 and 24 rings got.

So in my case, and I was guessing yours would be similar but of course I could be very wrong, I felt the cost of doing those jobs was better put into a road machine to allow me to slowly replace parts on my MTB to turn it back into an offroad machine than a man for all seasons.

As meanwhille pointed out this isn't about winning races and if you are happy with the speeds or efficiency once done work to your MTB then thats all great. My own personal choice might not be right for you and should have worded my post much better, hopefully meanwhile acccepts my apologies. Whatever choice you make let us know matey I am sure you will love the difference either a better MTB geared for road or hybrid will make. I do agree with meanwhile that wheel size alone won't make a massive difference its a combo of the factors, when you put a lot of them together it will add up hopefully for a great ride and more enjoyment.

meanwhile

thamacdaddy wrote:

In case I didn't explain properly I was simply trying to say this: a hybrid/road bike set up for me would definately be a good investment especially at the prices quoted,

I thinkl the point everyone agrees on is that a bike that the taxman pays half the cost - possibly making it free when you re-sell - is a glorious thing! The scheme definitely needs promoting more.

As meanwhille pointed out this isn't about winning races and if you are happy with the speeds or efficiency once done work to your MTB then thats all great. My own personal choice might not be right for you and should have worded my post much better, hopefully meanwhile acccepts my apologies.

De nada. What I'm really saying is probably "Bikes don't fall into definite species as much as people think" - some rigid MTB's are blazingly fast slicked up, and the one's that are slow aren't that way because of wheel size. And "The further up the performance curve you go, the MUCH more you pay in loss of other characteristics or cash for relatively small improvements."

Whatever choice you make let us know matey I am sure you will love the difference either a better MTB geared for road or hybrid will make. I do agree with meanwhile that wheel size alone won't make a massive difference its a combo of the factors, when you put a lot of them together it will add up hopefully for a great ride and more enjoyment.

My call is still put the slicks on, then maybe a new front chain ring, and hope the B2W comes through in the meantime. Then make the pleasant choice of spending half your budget on the bike you'd originally have got, or all of it on a bike costing twice as much. For £600ish I'd get a Cotic Roadrat. I've not ridden one, but it looks exactly like the Ultimate Courier Bike a friend and I designed on the back of a beermat in the beer garden of a laundrette. Except it isn't blotchy where the beer fell. Or you could be evil, keep the Scott for commuting, and buy a £600 fun bike, on or offroad. There's a lot to be said for a safe, reasonably fast commuter, that won't be a super thief magnet.