I'm Amazed!!!

johnnyc71

at the difference between my old hybrid and my new racer.

What a rush!

Descending was great fun, climbing was certainly easier. I found myself pushing myself alot harder than normal (proberbly trying to justify the cost to myself).

The hybrid has 700cc wheels with 35mm tyres, but what really surprised me was the smooth ride on 25mm tyres. I thought there would be more vibrations / bumps. As it is - the racer is by far the smoother ride.

One thing - I miss the stopping power of disc brakes - I nearly overdid things and shot out into a roundabout on the road bike - need to mentally adjust my stopping distances!

Anonymous

Hope you enjoy your new bike.

I've been wondering why road bikes, being technically the fastest type of bicycle, have such god-awful brakes.
is it purely a weight thing?

johnnyc71

Cheers yeehaamcgee - I'm sure I will. I guess the braking issue purely comes down to weight - discs brakes weigh alot. I was just a little surprised at the longer braking distances. I can't wait to get out for a spin tomorrow!

Anonymous

tell me about it, I had a quick spin on my boss' road bike once round the car park at work, and nearly crashed into someone's car when i tried to stop!

fizz

Glad you are enjoying your new bike.

One thing about brakes. I have 2007 Shimano 105 brakes on my best bike. I feel like they have enough stopping power to tip me over the bars and I can lock the back wheel up at pretty much any speed. Plenty of braking power there if I want it.

I'd suggest that perahps your brakes wont a tweak or a fiddle with maybe, Mind you I've not ridden a pedal bike with disc brakes so its hard to compare.

Anonymous

fizz, it is quite hard to explain how much more power a disc brake system has, without you trying it, it certainly shocked a few people I've introdiced to MTBing.

However, the reverse is also true, once you get used to discs, it's hard to imagine riding without them. Even a nicely set up pair of V brakes leaves me wanting more power!

So if all you've ever used are rim brakes, you should be fine, and, like yourself, couldn't imagine a need for any more power.

Oh, and Johnny, I'm almost certain that you'll get used to the brakes after a few rides, after all, there's millions of road cyclists who do just fine with rim brakes.

redddraggon

With my Centaur brakes I can go over the bars easily and lock my rear up.

Discs brakes won't really help, I can already stop my wheels spinning even in the wet - it's more to do with the lower tyre-surface contact area and the higher speeds you get on a road bike.

Good calipers and good pads are more than sufficient on a road bike.

johnnyc71

I'll just have to be careful to brake appropriately for each bike! My hybrid has Avid Juicy 3's - amazing stopping power with just one finger.

I found that I had to be in the drops on the road bike to get good leverage on the brakes. Braking from the hoods was ok for slowing down - wouldn't fancy doing an emergency stop from the hoods though. I was wondering if people have to quickly change hand positions for emergency braking.

The road bike has Dura ace brakes - I think they are set up properly - I just need to get used to them.

neeb

I'm convinced that the biggest difference between a lot of different types of bicycle brake is just how hard you have to pull them to get the same effect.

I remember 15 years ago when I was using an old 80s road bike with Mafac center-pull rim brakes thinking that when set up properly with decent pads they were as much as anyone would ever need... Then I had an MTB with Vs, then disk brakes, now Campag Chorus calipers on the road bike. They could all stop me as quickly as I would want even downhill at 40mph as long as the pads stuck to the rims/disks, it's just that with the old center-pulls I had to pull the levers so much harder! With hydraulic disk brakes it just takes the slightest pressure with the little finger.. You get used to the amount of pressure and then when you change to something else it seems too powerful or lacking in power until you adjust.

The chorus calipers have the best compromise between power and modulation of any of them.

Anonymous

red dragon hasn't tried discs, so he has no idea. But he believes he does.

redddraggon

johnnyc71 wrote:

The road bike has Dura ace brakes - I think they are set up properly - I just need to get used to them.

They are definitely more than enough to stop the wheels spinning (that's all a disc brake does anyway). How hard you are willing to brake with the front depends how brave you are if you accept the rear wheel lifting up a bit you brake really hard.

It's really a case of weight distribution on the bike, the caliper brakes are more than fine. Discs really come into play when you are getting all sorts of gunk on the rims - I never seem to get enough gunk for it to effect my calipers.

redddraggon

yeehaamcgee wrote:

red dragon hasn't tried discs, so he has no idea. But he believes he does.

All discs do is stop the wheels spinning - they don't actually "stop" you. I can easily lock up my front and rear wheel - what more can discs do?

Anonymous

There's no point, dragon, you're a dumbass, I get it.

neeb

Oh, and the chorus brakes are the first ones I have ever had that have never squealed.

My Avid Juicy disk brakes squealed so much when they were wet I almost crashed a few times because I worried about using them late at night in residential areas...

redddraggon

yeehaamcgee wrote:

There's no point, dragon, you're a dumbass, I get it.

No, you're the dumbass, all you're saying is "disc brakes are better" that's not much of an answer. Disc brakes might be better in certain circumstances, but they seem to do the job on the road for me.

You obviously used ill set up calipers or calipers with poor pads - I've got a bike with poor pads and I can definitely say they don't stop the bike. Decent calipers and decent pads well set up are more than sufficient.

So dumbass why are discs better?

redddraggon

yeehaamcgee wrote:

red dragon hasn't tried discs, so he has no idea. But he believes he does.

You seem to know quite a bit about me. I don't know how.

You always seem to come with stupid comments like "Cycling 9 miles is too hard" and won't accept that you are talking rubbish.

neeb

So dumbass why are discs better?

It's important for MTBers to be able to stop using just their pinkies. Something to do with the increased difficulty of grasping the handlebars without opposable thumbs..

Anonymous

Callipers with poorly set up pads? that's complete crap, you freaking cretin.

One of the biggest reasons for using disc brakes is that they require very little power input, to produce a whole load of stopping power. this makes it easier to modulate the brakes, meaning that it's possible to utilise them more effectively.

Racing cars/motorcycles have brakes that have enough stopping power to bring a truck to a halt, because having more performance overhead means you'll never ever find yourself lacking in anchors.

It's not about just being able to lock the wheels, it's about how easy it is to lock the wheels.

A perfect analogy would be a car's handbrake - which is a mechanical device. You can lock the back wheels with it, sure, but you try bringing a car to a halt with it. Not so easy. It just doesn't have the controlled power of the hydraulic system.

But then, from what I gather, you don't drive, so you wouldn't know about it.
Also, you've never tried disc brakes on a bicycle, so you're oblivious to their advantages as well.

Now give up the whole "I am a god" act, and take in the knowledge imparted to you by people who have experience of both systems being compared.

as for rim brakes being fine for road bikes. I never said they weren't - although admittedly I can see how "god awful brakes" could be perceived that way.
What I intended to put across was that after being used to discs, it seemed like much harder work to stop with rim brakes.

fizz

yeehaamcgee wrote:

fizz, it is quite hard to explain how much more power a disc brake system has, without you trying it, it certainly shocked a few people I've introdiced to MTBing..

I ride a motorbike, you dont need to tell me about how much power disc brakes have !!

I tihnk once you get beyond the point of locking up tyres and whatever speed you're doing or having so much power that it'll flip you over the bars, its not about ultimate braking power, more about how you use the brakes and the techniques involved.

Anonymous

quite right, fizz.

neeb

One of the biggest reasons for using disc brakes is that they require very little power input, to produce a whole load of stopping power. this makes it easier to modulate the brakes, meaning that it's possible to utilise them more effectively.

This doesn't necessarily follow. If the power input required is too little, it is more difficult to modulate the brakes in most circumstances. The increased modulation only comes into play in extreme circumstances. The power input/output curve for calipers is appropriate to their intended use, i.e. controlling a lightweight bike and rider on tarmac, as opposed to a gorilla on a DH MTB who has difficulties recognising trees.

st68

disc brakes are definitely better than calipers if not they would not be on motor bikes but its horses for courses calipers are quite adequate for a road bike maybe not a downhill mountain bike

Anonymous

Hey, I used to watch Monty Python, I can recognise trees. I can spot a Larch from miles away.

Brakes that are too powerful will be harder to modulate at first, but no-one said too powerful.
The trick is to not require strength to reach full braking force, instead relying on lever position.

Seriously, if you haven;t tried it before, beg, borrow or steal an MTB, or a hybrid with discs, and try it out. It takes a while to get used to it, but they do offer serious benefits.

neeb

Having used both good quality hydraulic disks and top quality modern calipers extensively, I can honestly say that I don't see any benefit to disks on a road bike. Quite apart from the increased weight they are far more complicated to service and maintain and more prone to squealing.

st68

i dont think you could call steve peat a gorilla

Anonymous

you could if you could catch him.

johnnyc71

The first time I tried out disc brakes on my hybrid - I thought to myself "gently pull the lever" - nearly went over the bars - I guess you have to learn quick.

Anonymous

neeb, I must admit to never having had to maintain modern rim brakes, but I've had a zero-maintenance - apart from changing the pads - disc setup for a decade, whereas my V-brakes (not the same, admittedly) needed adjusting almost weekly.
squealing is also a non-issue.

The weight, however, I totally agree with. They can't compete with rim brakes on weight.

johnnyc71

yeehaamcgee wrote:

squealing is also a non-issue.

My discs squeal like a banshee - must be the pads I'm using.

neeb

neeb, I must admit to never having had to maintain modern rim brakes, but I've had a zero-maintenance - apart from changing the pads - disc setup for a decade, whereas my V-brakes (not the same, admittedly) needed adjusting almost weekly.
squealing is also a non-issue.

The weight, however, I totally agree with. They can't compete with rim brakes on weight.

Yeah, I never had to do much maintenance on my disks either, but I always had it in the back of my mind that if they did fail, I was probably completely scuppered, and that I should probably pay someone to service them every now and again. They are pretty complicated pieces of equipment. And mine DID squeal, despite hours of fiddling with the setup and changing pads. Good quality calipers are completely transparent and completely self-serviceable, they just work and are no more complicated than they need to be. It's just like the well-known different approaches of NASA and the soviets to getting a writing instrument to work in zero g - the Americans developed the pressurised fischer space pen, the russians just used pencils...

Anonymous

I hear of a lot of people with squaking brakes, but it's honestly not a problem I've ever had, once the pads have bedded in, on Hopes, or Avids.

it certainly seems to be a common problem though.

Another reason for road bikes not using discs, I guess, is that the forks would have to be reinforced to take the rotational force, which would add more weight again.